 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
PianoManChuck
Platinum Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 832
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| RonF wrote: | | PianoManChuck wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | I want to get away from that signature Kronos sound.....Not that I don't like it, but I just want to portray a more "original" sound. |
When you say "more original sound", do you mean a sound that can be recognized as being that of your own performances? (Sort of like Queen had their own distinctive guitar sound, as do many other bands?) |
If I understand you correctly....I'm not suggesting that I seek to create my own "signature sound"....just that I don't want my music to sound like it was the product of a Korg workstation, per se. No disrespect to Korg or the Kronos sound, which is brilliant, but I try to make truly original music, and when its electronic music that we make, we have to be aware of the signature sounds of the instruments we use as perhaps being too obvious. You don't want your audience going: "oh that was done on a Kronos". I've heard a few tunes posted up where the piano sounds exactly like the first program on Kronos. Not that this is so horrible....because its a great piano sound...but its not particularly original in my way of thinking. So if you listen to my Pray for Me song, where the piano is prominent....its that same patch...but I tweaked it to sit in the mix, and its no longer recognizable as a Kronos piano, IMO. |
Ok, I think I understand what your goal is now. Other than a small percentage of the Kronos community, I seriously doubt that your audience will be going: "oh that was done on a Kronos" unless your audience IS that small percentage of the Kronos community who would actually recognize the various Kronos sound patches. As a composer/performer myself, I don't have a problem with having a Kronos creation/performance sound like it came from a Kronos... any more than I'd change an acoustic Steinway concert grand from sounding like an acoustice Steinway concert grand. But that's me. I would change/upgrade to a better instrument or synth to get better quality, but I wouldn't necessarily spend time making it sound like it didn't come from that particular instrument or synth.
If I understand you correctly, it seems that your goal isn't so much about making it sound like it didn't come from a Kronos... but more like it came from physical, acoustic instruments. That would make perfect sense.
Me... it doesn't bother me at all if it sounds like a Kronos... if 1,000 people heard a creation I did without seeing me play it, I think only a small fraction of those people would realize it... but that wouldn't bother me either!
However... I think that if you and I each played the same piece on the Kronos and you did the tweaking to make each sound exactly the way you wanted to... then I think your performance would probably sound better to a higher percentage of the listeners. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PianoManChuck wrote: |
Ok, I think I understand what your goal is now. Other than a small percentage of the Kronos community, I seriously doubt that your audience will be going: "oh that was done on a Kronos" unless your audience IS that small percentage of the Kronos community who would actually recognize the various Kronos sound patches. As a composer/performer myself, I don't have a problem with having a Kronos creation/performance sound like it came from a Kronos... any more than I'd change an acoustic Steinway concert grand from sounding like an acoustice Steinway concert grand. But that's me. I would change/upgrade to a better instrument or synth to get better quality, but I wouldn't necessarily spend time making it sound like it didn't come from that particular instrument or synth.
If I understand you correctly, it seems that your goal isn't so much about making it sound like it didn't come from a Kronos... but more like it came from physical, acoustic instruments. That would make perfect sense.
Me... it doesn't bother me at all if it sounds like a Kronos... if 1,000 people heard a creation I did without seeing me play it, I think only a small fraction of those people would realize it... but that wouldn't bother me either!
However... I think that if you and I each played the same piece on the Kronos and you did the tweaking to make each sound exactly the way you wanted to... then I think your performance would probably sound better to a higher percentage of the listeners. |
Points well made, PMC! I see what you are saying... but perhaps I am not explaining myself as well as I could.
Its not that there is anything at all wrong with the straight out-of-the-box "sounds of the Kronos", or any need to "degrade" its sound (unless there an artistic reason you may want to do that). And its not like I think, as you said, any more than a small fraction of listeners will be able to identify the sound of one keyboard over another. But *I* can tell. And it bugs *me*.
I don't know whether you have ever had the experience, but I know I have occasionally listened to a professional music CD or other music release...and have been able to identify a sample library or a patch from a keyboard in the music....and it absolutely ruins the experience for me. I think...."hell I could have done that in my own studio" or "all this guy is doing is cutting and pasting samples and presets". I don't know whether this is "fair" or not, or whether it should make any difference....because sample libraries and keyboard presets are there for a reason (perhaps "convenience"). But simply "arranging" presets and sample libraries is not "high art" in my view. Its not "wrong"....but you *can* do "better". I hope that doesn't come off sounding opinionated or arrogant....its just a point of view that inspires me to do...well..."better".
Some of the songs I hear which are arrangements of preset Kronos Combi's are really great, and in themselves they are artistic and pleasing.....but its not entirely original material, is it? As in, *I* wouldn't expect you could put 10 such songs together and call it an "album of original music".
When you listen to my Zimmer-ish song....you might be be surprised to know it was done using almost exclusively Kronos orchestral patches. Because it doesn't immediately sound (IMO) like its out-of-the-box Kronos. Perhaps the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That is an expression of originality.
I'm not knocking out-of-the-box Kronos sounds....I'm just suggesting that there is a creative expression of originality which can be found by tweaking and editing those sounds into something more personal or unique....which is very satisfying.
As I said in my first post on this topic....this may or may not matter to you....but if it does, Kronos is VERY tweak-able to arrive at diverse and original textures. Its what I am most impressed about Kronos thus far.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Morshu
Senior Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 312
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| can you make good house music with the kronos |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kontrol49
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1280
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
So would you think the Mona Lisa was any less of a masterpiece if you found out Da Vinci had used already available paints or mixed his own.
To me theres always been a snobbish attitude towards people using presets especially if they are a famous artist,if it fits the need then who cares!!!!
Anyone who's unique and has a style of their own will always have a signature sound irrespective of the sounds they choose to use,enigma to throw in an example use presets all over the place but they are always recognisable within a few bars of a song as to their style with or without using them....
_________________
--Korg Nautilus~~Korg Modwave--Korg SV-1-Korg Wavestate-- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Kontrol49 wrote: | So would you think the Mona Lisa was any less of a masterpiece if you found out Da Vinci had used already available paints or mixed his own.
To me theres always been a snobbish attitude towards people using presets especially if they are a famous artist,if it fits the need then who cares!!!!
Anyone who's unique and has a style of their own will always have a signature sound irrespective of the sounds they choose to use,enigma to throw in an example use presets all over the place but they are always recognisable within a few bars of a song as to their style with or without using them.... |
I think the better question would be: would you think Mona Lisa was as much of a masterpiece if you knew the famous ML smile was a piece of clip art which was assembled along with other pieces of clip art into a montage. And as good as that montage may be....that same ML smile clip is being used in dozens of other montages with varying success...???
Mostly, I agree with you Kontrol49. If the talent and quality in the music is there.....the ubiquitous nature of a preset or sample may not be apparent at all, because it is overshadowed by the originality and passion of the music. But in my personal experience, this is the exception, not the rule.
Enigma IS a very good example. An international platinum selling artist with the best of the best resources at his disposal (Michael Cretu)....he is definitely the exception. And in fact while his work does use the occasional preset or sample library which is recognizable....the lion's share of his material is entirely original, if not ground-breaking at times. For us mere mortals....it may be more difficult to blend the use of presets and samples without it being overtly apparent.
For the record...I am no preset snob....I just enjoy and am proud of the original creative aspects of sound design too. No worries if someone uses presets....but don't kid yourself into to thinking that its not noticeable in many cases. Maybe this matters to you or not. Either way is cool by me. I use presets too...but I do tend to tweak them.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1550
Location: Hawaii
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
RonF,
I love your setup too. Very impressive!
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ojustaboo
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 1154
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RonF wrote: |
I think the better question would be: would you think Mona Lisa was as much of a masterpiece if you knew the famous ML smile was a piece of clip art which was assembled along with other pieces of clip art into a montage. And as good as that montage may be....that same ML smile clip is being used in dozens of other montages with varying success...???
|
Very true. Only this evening I was setting up my new mixer, m3 and cubase to work together properly.
Simply recorded a couple of audio tracks into cubase from my m3.
First track I played 3 notes, but thanks to the preset combi I was using and Karma, I had drums and all sorts of melodies auto playing.
Second track was simply me pressing 2 notes using a Radias synth program.
Played it back in a continous loop while I messed around with my mixer. Wife walks in and tells me what a great tune I've made.
It did actually not sound that bad, but it wasn't me, it was karma and me playing 2 notes.
Chances are a lot of m3 will have made virtually the exact same thing as not only was I using preset sounds, i was also using preset melodies and drums via karma.
Best
Joe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PianoManChuck
Platinum Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 832
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RonF wrote: | | I'm not knocking out-of-the-box Kronos sounds....I'm just suggesting that there is a creative expression of originality which can be found by tweaking and editing those sounds into something more personal or unique....which is very satisfying. |
THAT's the sentence I was looking for, Ron. That solitary sentence explains everything and now I completely "get you".
That's a level that I can understand, and a level that I've not even touched upon yet. I mean, I like the Steinway piano (German Grand), but don't like the default "Player" perspective... I always change that to "Audience" perspective... it just sounds better "to me"... and I'm sure that if it sounds better "to me", that would be passed on to my audience. I know this is just one of many "tweaks" but for me its just a beginning. To do the kind of tweaks you're talking about is an entirely new level. Right now, I'm just busy playing the instrument. Eventually I may want to sculpt the sounds in a way that's more pleasing to me or an audience. I know the Kronos can do that, I'm just not at that particular level yet. Thank you for that explanation, it opens my eyes into an entirely different level of creation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1550
Location: Hawaii
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you change the perspective the highs are on the left I think. It's backwards to playing a piano. Nothing wrong with at... Just different.
_________________
Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PianoManChuck wrote: |
THAT's the sentence I was looking for, Ron. That solitary sentence explains everything and now I completely "get you".
That's a level that I can understand, and a level that I've not even touched upon yet. I mean, I like the Steinway piano (German Grand), but don't like the default "Player" perspective... I always change that to "Audience" perspective... it just sounds better "to me"... and I'm sure that if it sounds better "to me", that would be passed on to my audience. I know this is just one of many "tweaks" but for me its just a beginning. To do the kind of tweaks you're talking about is an entirely new level. Right now, I'm just busy playing the instrument. Eventually I may want to sculpt the sounds in a way that's more pleasing to me or an audience. I know the Kronos can do that, I'm just not at that particular level yet. Thank you for that explanation, it opens my eyes into an entirely different level of creation. |
Thanks PMC.....you know this is a hard topic to express well in words, and not come off sounding like a "preset snob", which is genuinely not my intention, and I apologize if it came off that way to anyone. Kronos is a remarkable instrument with so much horsepower. What I was trying to express is only that Kronos has the power, should you desire to tap it, to sound very different than the out-of-the-box sounds. And for a song like the Zimmer-ish song I posted up, where I was trying to get a different flavor (hollywood soundtrack), I was impressed with how well it turned out. But you can't (at least I don't think) get that type of sound by simply layering presets. At least it didn't work for me. But on the other hand....Kronos is remarkable for many reasons, not ONLY studio recording and original composition. It also excels at performance applications, and part of what makes it so good at that is the quality and immediacy of its patch library....and other features such as KARMA...... When playing live cover's for example, finding the right presets for the band on the quick is exactly what you want and need....and having it sound authentic is crucial. Also, sometimes you seek to simply PLAY an instrument.....where again, things like Combi's which you can perform "along with" is breathtaking. So.....just please know that my opinion about this topic is well rounded...not snob-ish. And when you choose to try out some more creative original editing and composition, once again Kronos excels at this beyond just about any single instrument I have ever played.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| aron wrote: | RonF,
I love your setup too. Very impressive! |
Sincere thanks, my friend!
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mercuryyyy
Full Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 111
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hedegaard wrote: | | Mercuryyyy wrote: | | aron wrote: | > Glad to see that there are still real musicians out there in these horrible times in the music industry
Yes, but what about the live music? It's getting worse and worse. Someone tell me there's somewhere where there's great live music and support from the fans. |
Yea that too, everything just sucks so much these days, its weird. Its like its an agenda to have non talented artsists in the mainstream instead of having true talented musicians there. Its like the music industry has been hijacked. People who say that the reason is cause the record companies only wants to make money then well didnt the record companies make money in the past ? When there was real music? Yes they did so its not about money, its about dumbing down society with crap music. |
I'm not so sure about that, theres plenty of good music out there.
Music is not only about appreciation of things such as playing style, or how good you are as a performer or technique, but I notice that all of these Kronos demos lack a basic, catchy melody.
Its funny, because melody is what catches the entire song, its what people remember most about a song, it defines genre, its the speaking-voice of a song.
To just play "auto-rhythm" with a few dabs of stuff on top, dosen't make for a good song.
This thread is quite similar to a few Oasys threads about peoples own creations, i.e. lack of melodic music, just sequences of sounds put together that sound so random, its no wonder they don't qualify for mainstream!
Ironically though, Sina172 is quite talented and his music makes for good listening. (But hes the most whacked out reality distorted person here)
I don't mean to be rude or to put anyone down, but can SOMEONE please just make something that could qualify for a Top100 song????
Is it really so difficult to do? |
Dude, you are an amature. How you can sit here an ask for a top 100 song is funny cause the song you posted is about as amaturish ive ever heard. You act like you know alot about music but it certainly shows how much you really know about music with the song you posted. Yes you say its 10 years old or whatever, but that doesn't mean anything cause you don't seem to have a newer or better song to post.
You are an amature trying to act like you know about music. I don't mind when somebody speaks their mind but common at least back it up with something credible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Back to the music!
Here is a rough mix of a new song, and I am particularly proud to say this song was done entirely on Kronos with only an electric guitar as an external source. Even the guitar effects were Kronos, and recorded to Kronos audio tracks. The song also has some prominent use of a Midi Guitar Controller with Kronos as the sound source. Most Kronos drums and percussion were played with sticks using a midi pad controller (SPD30). The O-verb and Kronos mastering effects were used in this mix, no outboard effects.
I must say....Kronos is a very inspiring instrument! Endless tweaks and capabilities!
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/hourglass
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MidnightPackage
Full Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 171
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Though someone was kind enough to mention this piece in another thread, I think it belongs here too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j98ufIMWksM&hd=1
_________________
Korg Kronos 61, Yamaha P120 88, Roland Alpha Juno 2 61, Boss RC-300 Loopstation, Roland SC55, M-Audio Axiom 61, Novation ReMOTE 25, Boss ME-6, Electro-Voice Raven, Alesis Multimix 8 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Outstanding! I particularly like the organ work, and the lead guitar emulations. Very well done! Nice mix too.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
