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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1856
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 Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Dikikeys wrote: | | It is simple economics. Talented people want to get paid for their work... Just like any other software, you are buying the right to USE a style, not the right to share it ... |
That is exactly i would not carry to that forum - a discussion about sense and nonsense of copyrights about styles - or maybe also about sounds.
If there would be a market to make money with styles, suddenly each manufacturer would have styleprotection - that is simple to do and that would be simple economics. Probably it is not worth the effort to produce good material for a handful of players.
Someone trying to edit styles, try to use existing features and find secrets of styleplay-functions do not need protected styles - also protected styles can not expect to a huge explosion of great third party styles, that is an illusion.
To use styles without restrictions seems to be a better way to promote creativity with tools like styleeditor (look at HP of Elmar Herz) - expect someone think styleeditor, soundeditor and numerous features to expand creativity are not necessary, as we get good material from talented people paid for its work - and one further step you get styles sounding like CD, but copyright-protected.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: | | Bachus wrote: | | Its not Yamahas fault that your local dealers are ripping off yamaha customers.. |
It's Yamaha, not the local dealers….they set the RRP $8,000, not the dealers !!!!!!!
Dealers then discount it to street price the best they can.
Pete  |
overhere in europe the RRP is €4700 which is about $7000AUS
Yet you can buy them as low as €3300 new and in the box... Thats just under $4700AUS
Dont tell me Australian dealers dont cut deals?
And its not Yamaha setting the RRP, its Yamaha in cooperation with the larger dealers.... Those dealers are the reason for that higher RRP in the first place.. And they are obviously also the reason of not cutting any deals... |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10420
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dont tell me Australian dealers dont cut deals? |
I won't tell you that because it's not true!!
| Quote: | | And its not Yamaha setting the RRP, its Yamaha in cooperation with the larger dealers.... |
Absolutely incorrect my friend. I have a close acquaintance who has been dealing keyboards here for over 20 years - I can assure you that it is not the "larger dealers" - maybe the distributor but I even doubt that.
We have excessive goods tax, sales tax and import duties imposed here too but still Yamaha are the worst for pricing its higher end arrangers.
| Quote: | | Yet you can buy them as low as €3300 new and in the box... Thats just under $4700AUS |
Exactly how it should be - Korg don't present this pricing problem
Pete
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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Dikikeys
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | Dikikeys wrote: | | It is simple economics. Talented people want to get paid for their work... Just like any other software, you are buying the right to USE a style, not the right to share it ... |
That is exactly i would not carry to that forum - a discussion about sense and nonsense of copyrights about styles - or maybe also about sounds.
If there would be a market to make money with styles, suddenly each manufacturer would have styleprotection - that is simple to do and that would be simple economics. Probably it is not worth the effort to produce good material for a handful of players.
Someone trying to edit styles, try to use existing features and find secrets of styleplay-functions do not need protected styles - also protected styles can not expect to a huge explosion of great third party styles, that is an illusion.
To use styles without restrictions seems to be a better way to promote creativity with tools like styleeditor (look at HP of Elmar Herz) - expect someone think styleeditor, soundeditor and numerous features to expand creativity are not necessary, as we get good material from talented people paid for its work - and one further step you get styles sounding like CD, but copyright-protected. |
As I said... obviously, you cannot see the argument from the viewpoint of the person actually CREATING the styles.
Enjoy things the way they are. Few good styles available except the ROM ones. The only thing that will change this is a change in attitude about style sharing, or copy protection for the makers of styles, and we can already see your attitude about protection...
OK, you're so smart... YOU tell us what is needed to be done to encourage talented style makers (obviously, you are not one, or you would understand the issue!) to offer great styles to a bunch of thieves only TOO happy to rip them off...  |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: StyleProtection - NO |
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| Dikikeys wrote: | | ... tell us what is needed to be done to encourage talented style makers to offer great styles to a bunch of thieves |
It's your way to insult keyboarders using existing free styles and do not want restrictions like Korg tries once with Pa3X-styleprotection.
You may look for and use styles of encouraged talented stylemakers - you will not be hindered thereby, maybe you hardly will find anything, for there is no known market. Such a market did not exist in past, as similar trials were terminated due to insufficient interest.
Since a huge community is not paranoid it want use its keyboard without styleprotection as Korg did for a short time. Fortunately canceled them again because it was not useful and because it was not accepted by many of them (gang of thieves you mean).
If you want to buy some styles - like content of MUZIKANT for Pa600 - you can buy it and pay for a Micro-SD-card to activate that software. Each encouraged talented stylemaker can try same procedure - without needs to reduce an instruments features creativity by styleprotection!
Make a good offer and maybe you will find a stylecreator for good styles - but without to change existing Pa3x-OS of others.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: StyleProtection - NO |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | Dikikeys wrote: | | ... tell us what is needed to be done to encourage talented style makers to offer great styles to a bunch of thieves |
It's your way to insult keyboarders using existing free styles and do not want restrictions like Korg tries once with Pa3X-styleprotection.
You may look for and use styles of encouraged talented stylemakers - you will not be hindered thereby, maybe you hardly will find anything, for there is no known market. Such a market did not exist in past, as similar trials were terminated due to insufficient interest.
Since a huge community is not paranoid it want use its keyboard without styleprotection as Korg did for a short time. Fortunately canceled them again because it was not useful and because it was not accepted by many of them (gang of thieves you mean).
If you want to buy some styles - like content of MUZIKANT for Pa600 - you can buy it and pay for a Micro-SD-card to activate that software. Each encouraged talented stylemaker can try same procedure - without needs to reduce an instruments features creativity by styleprotection!
Make a good offer and maybe you will find a stylecreator for good styles - but without to change existing Pa3x-OS of others. |
Styleprotection as implemented prevented me from edditing the stuff i bought... Which makes it a bad thing, if i buy something i want to do with it as i like to..
But not having any styleprotection does not allow you to use stuff you are legally not entitled to, like copying 3rd party styles created by commercial parties..
What diki says is that creating new styles is commercially not atractive because there is no etic among users that witholds them from illegallly abusing stuff .. |
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Dikikeys
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Sieben... there's a HUGE difference between amateurs 'sharing' what THEY created, and the truth about most style sharing sites... They are PACKED with styles from commercial style houses and conversions of commercial styles from other manufacturers (you are REALLY supposed to pay for those - remember, you are paying for the USE of the style, it makes no difference to the style creator what arranger you use it on)
Let's be honest here... Personally, I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of user created styles (not commercial ones) that are even in the ballpark of the ROM styles. So, let us not deceive ourselves... Our interest in style 'sharing' is simply to get our hands on good styles without paying for them (as we are supposed to).
Prove me wrong... post a bunch of styles that YOU have created from scratch.
And yes, TBH if copy protection means I can't mess with the style, that's a price I'm willing to pay IF the style is perfect to start with. Plus, there's no reason why, if you edit the style to better suit your needs, it can't be stored in the 'invisible' section of RAM that the protected style already sits in. And the arranger itself allows considerable 'editing' of a style simply by offsets and mutes (what most of us end up doing in the first place).
I have no problems with a style creator saying that, for the sake of revenue protection he HAS to restrict our ability to do some of the mash-up things you can do with different styles or offline backup, if the end result is an explosion in great styles.
I'm not sure how far back your memory goes with regard to how things USED to be, but mine goes back almost to the dawn of the arranger. And I certainly remember better style availability in between model releases..! It has only been the trend in 'sharing' that has changed. The demand for great styles certainly has got no less!
That grownups (I am assuming you are over 20!) can sit there and justify 'stealing' others' work only shows how far the prevailing attitude has come, and also how unwilling they are to acknowledge that it IS this sharing that has led directly to the lack of great 3rd party styles anymore. As I said earlier, start a company, make some GREAT styles (as good as the ROM ones) and offer them for sale. Then tell me how you feel about 'sharing'... 
Until then, all you are doing is finding a specious way to justify the crime. |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dikikeys wrote: | | ... all you are doing is finding a specious way to justify the crime |
Every post of yours contains a suggestive accusation of members, but without reason.
No one steals or destroys the existence of a StyleCreator or use illegal software.
There are methods of styleprotection - such as Korg has proven - but we or Korg are not obligated to find a specious way to justify the crime or looking for a way to protect style from being shared. Methods are known, must not be seeked - but there is no market. There would be a market if there is a demand and somebody is willing to pay an imagined price. In the past there where some trials (Roland, Yamaha) without success - been innocent sharing.
If you really want good styles you get it - therefore recommend to use 3rd-part-sw as soon as available - pay a good price, do not copy if copyright-protected. But do not use words such as crime, thieves and robbers, also avoid to accuse groups of adults, they meet only to justify theft.
If 3rd-party software-engeneers are not willing produce for a tiny-market, to additionally protect their products and as soon as you find offerts like
"3000 new musikstyles for Korg" for EURO 29 - you preach and scold not on the right place.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Dikikeys
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| siebenhirter wrote: |
No one steals or destroys the existence of a StyleCreator or use illegal software. |
Nice try, but we both know this isn't true. In fact, even just recently we have seen people promoting sites with styles up for grabs on them. Not to mention, up on the locker sites, just about every music software out there is cracked and up for grabs.
Are you unaware of all this, or is it hard to admit the problem exists? |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dikikeys wrote: | | ... just about every music software out there is cracked and up for grabs |
Once again, a discussion about sense and nonsense of copyrights is not necessary to be guided here or for which you have to fight here.
The right to communicate in private is a fundamental human right, and the copyright monopoly - upholded by civil servants - is a commercial distribution monopoly that carries significantly less weight.
That has not to do why you could not see a huge explosion in great third party styles. There is no obstacle to produce styles with style-protection-techniques. Simple there is no market to produce for a tiny-market without benefit.
If you are willing to pay for unique styles you get what you want without lamenting about sharing like you do.
Another way to get them - limit the amount auf disturbing Acc-Tracks to make room for drums and bass, use appropriate voices, do not exaggerate with effects, learn to use your editor and to use styleplay-features that Korg offers since more than ten years.
Since almost none noticed the lack of essentials like Fill-Mode in new serie of Pa-keyboards but was happy about Autofills. At least styleplay is reduced to be driven like cd-players - maybe it is not the amount of missing styles but the lack of missing ideas.
Let's be honest here... You try to convince there few users do not create styles - maybe it is one assumption which manifests itselves using styles like cds - constantly new styles needed.
PS: Hope you did not forget to visit HP of Elmar Herz as recommended.
_________________
kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Dikikeys
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | Dikikeys wrote: | | ... just about every music software out there is cracked and up for grabs |
Once again, a discussion about sense and nonsense of copyrights is not necessary to be guided here or for which you have to fight here.
The right to communicate in private is a fundamental human right, and the copyright monopoly - upholded by civil servants - is a commercial distribution monopoly that carries significantly less weight.
That has not to do why you could not see a huge explosion in great third party styles. There is no obstacle to produce styles with style-protection-techniques. Simple there is no market to produce for a tiny-market without benefit.
If you are willing to pay for unique styles you get what you want without lamenting about sharing like you do.
Another way to get them - limit the amount auf disturbing Acc-Tracks to make room for drums and bass, use appropriate voices, do not exaggerate with effects, learn to use your editor and to use styleplay-features that Korg offers since more than ten years.
Since almost none noticed the lack of essentials like Fill-Mode in new serie of Pa-keyboards but was happy about Autofills. At least styleplay is reduced to be driven like cd-players - maybe it is not the amount of missing styles but the lack of missing ideas.
Let's be honest here... You try to convince there few users do not create styles - maybe it is one assumption which manifests itselves using styles like cds - constantly new styles needed.
PS: Hope you did not forget to visit HP of Elmar Herz as recommended. |
What has the right to communicate got anything to do with stealing commercial data? I'm not sure, from how poor your replies' English is, that you are quite understanding me...
You cannot for one moment honestly be saying that we have the right to share styles we have paid for, can you? |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10420
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| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I really appreciate all the responses and gossip here - but are we OT right now?
Do you want to carry on the "styles/copyright issues etc..."? - perhaps a new topic if it is considered important?
Cheers
Pete
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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