Troubleshooting experience - Stuck MIDI notes

[V-man]

Hi,

Just wanted to share some discoveries made last week. Have had issues with notes getting Stuck/hangs in my keyboard rig with a Kronos 2 as the main node in the set up. I use a MIDI Solutions Merger V2 to connect together all my gear. In our bands rehearsal space I have a duplicated set up of gear except the MIDI merge box that is an old MIDI Man 2x2 box. I also have a couple of old sustain pedals.

At home I randomly experience stuck notes but never in the rehearsal space which always have led me to believe that this might be caused by the MIDI Solutions merge box I use at home. A couple of days ago the issues at home escalated and got worse but this time the behavior was different. This time the notes got stuck but sometimes they released from being stuck. I thought wtf!?

I then thought, is this only due to the MIDI merge box or could this be caused by the sustain pedals ...or is it the Kronos it self (hope to God not!)?? It turned out that when I switched the two sustain pedals I was able to locate the issue corresponding to one of the sustain pedals. The issue was generated by a recently bought Roland DP-10 pedal. The issue could in fact be reproduced at the local music store. I breathed a sigh of relief since this meant that there is probably no issues with my synths and keyboards. I returned the Roland pedal in exchange for a Yamaha pedal and went home to test.

Plugged in the new pedal and everything seemed to work much better, but suddenly I got stuck notes again, not the releasing kind but the once that need midi panic to release. Later that evening we rehearsed with the band again and as usual there were no issues at all. This lead me to the conclusion that there is still an issue with the Midi Solutions merge box at home. I brought with me the old MIDI Man 2x2 box from the rehearsal space and plugged it in resulting in no issues at all.

So I can conclude that in my case the issue with stuck notes was actually due to more than one components malfunctioning, both the MIDI Solutions merge box and at the same time the almost new Roland DP-10 pedal.

May this can be of help to some one at least

[pete.m]

That's very interesting, and it's good of you to share the info. These odd kind of problems can drive you nuts trying to find the cause, and your input would definitely help. Really weird to think that the Roland pedal was in some way causing a problem, too - I'd never have thought to consider that.

As I was reading your post, I kept wondering whether the problem might ultimately turn out to have been a faulty MIDI cable. If it was slightly damaged or reaching the end of its useful life in some way, that might have explained the intermittent and unpredictable nature of the fault. Hopefully, you've nailed it now. But, if it happens again, I think that might be my next line of enquiry.

Thanks again for sharing.

[V-man]

That's very interesting, and it's good of you to share the info. These odd kind of problems can drive you nuts trying to find the cause, and your input would definitely help. Really weird to think that the Roland pedal was in some way causing a problem, too - I'd never have thought to consider that.

As I was reading your post, I kept wondering whether the problem might ultimately turn out to have been a faulty MIDI cable. If it was slightly damaged or reaching the end of its useful life in some way, that might have explained the intermittent and unpredictable nature of the fault. Hopefully, you've nailed it now. But, if it happens again, I think that might be my next line of enquiry.

Thanks again for sharing.

Hi, thanks for your feedback. I agree that these kind of issues really can make you go bananas! I forgot to include in the story the fact that I actually made tests replacing the MIDI cables involved but in this case the issue persisted. I also replaced the MIDI Solutions merge box with my old MIDI Man 2x2 using the same old MIDI cables and then it worked fine. ...so as you mentioned, hopefully the issue is now solved.

[pete.m]

Ah, that's great to know. I admire your perseverance. I think you've done well to have resolved that one.

[voip]

It might be worth mentioning the problem to MIDI Solutions themselves.

.

[ChrisDuncan]

Just recently I fought a battle with somewhat related symptoms, so I'll share in case it might offer another thing to keep an eye on.

First, let me state my assumptions, just in case I have it wrong. You mention the Kronos as the main node, so I'm guessing that it's the master MIDI controller for other keyboards / sound modules. You mention stuck notes, so I'm assuming that this isn't stuck notes on the Kronos internal sounds but rather from the keyboards / sound modules it's controlling.

Assuming that's the scenario, here's my related war story.

I recently added a Fantom 7. I have the Kronos, a JV 2080 module, and now the Fantom. I was trying to control the Fantom via a combi, and I was getting severe lag - not latency, but delays of one or two seconds, sometimes three, in the note off being processed on the Fantom. So, I'd play a note on the Kronos, it would sound on the Fantom, I'd release on the Kronos, but it would hang for a couple of seconds before note off.

There were additional symptoms, but all of it led me to think that the MIDI input buffer on the Fantom was being overloaded, and that's in fact what it turned out to be. When channels in a combi are set to EXT or EXT2, the controller data gets transmitted out those channels even if the channel is muted (which one wouldn't expect). Additionally, another user here reported that when experimenting with combis that the Kronos was sending out a ton of sysex.

The combination of these things slammed the Fantom's MIDI input buffer, which delayed processing of things such as the note off message, which of course presents the symptom of hung notes.

In my "Fantom" combi I had all the channels except 16 (which is my Global channel) set to EXT, so I turned them all to INT except for what I was actually using. Additionally, I went through the three MIDI filter pages and unchecked everything I didn't need. I also went into the Global settings and disabled the sending of sysex as it's not something I need. This solved the problem.

Since you were still having problems after switching out the pedal and think it might be the MIDI Merge, I wonder if you might be suffering from a similar "overloaded pipe" scenario that the MIDI Merge just can't handle. If that's the case and you're using combis on the Kronos, you might take a look to see if you're generating extra data that you don't need. If that's the case, and it is indeed just overloading the MIDI Merge unit, maybe some fine tuning would help prevent future adventures.

As an aside, my 30 year old Roland JV 2080 got the same flood of data and never even blinked, while the brand new flagship Fantom begged for mercy. I think that's pretty lame, but I got great support from Roland so I didn't poke them in the ribs about this.

Of course, all gear has it's limitations, it's just a matter of finding out where it squeaks. I don't know if this is relevant to your problems or not, but discovering that a) combis send data out an EXT / EXT2 channel even when muted and b) the Kronos sends a lot of sysex were useful bits of information for me so I know where the limits are.

Hope this helps. And if it's not relevant, well, this was five minutes of your life you're never getting back.

[V-man]

It might be worth mentioning the problem to MIDI Solutions themselves.

.

Yeah I might actually do that!

[V-man]

Just recently I fought a battle with somewhat related symptoms, so I'll share in case it might offer another thing to keep an eye on.

First, let me state my assumptions, just in case I have it wrong. You mention the Kronos as the main node, so I'm guessing that it's the master MIDI controller for other keyboards / sound modules. You mention stuck notes, so I'm assuming that this isn't stuck notes on the Kronos internal sounds but rather from the keyboards / sound modules it's controlling.

Assuming that's the scenario, here's my related war story.

I recently added a Fantom 7. I have the Kronos, a JV 2080 module, and now the Fantom. I was trying to control the Fantom via a combi, and I was getting severe lag - not latency, but delays of one or two seconds, sometimes three, in the note off being processed on the Fantom. So, I'd play a note on the Kronos, it would sound on the Fantom, I'd release on the Kronos, but it would hang for a couple of seconds before note off.

There were additional symptoms, but all of it led me to think that the MIDI input buffer on the Fantom was being overloaded, and that's in fact what it turned out to be. When channels in a combi are set to EXT or EXT2, the controller data gets transmitted out those channels even if the channel is muted (which one wouldn't expect). Additionally, another user here reported that when experimenting with combis that the Kronos was sending out a ton of sysex.

The combination of these things slammed the Fantom's MIDI input buffer, which delayed processing of things such as the note off message, which of course presents the symptom of hung notes.

In my "Fantom" combi I had all the channels except 16 (which is my Global channel) set to EXT, so I turned them all to INT except for what I was actually using. Additionally, I went through the three MIDI filter pages and unchecked everything I didn't need. I also went into the Global settings and disabled the sending of sysex as it's not something I need. This solved the problem.

Since you were still having problems after switching out the pedal and think it might be the MIDI Merge, I wonder if you might be suffering from a similar "overloaded pipe" scenario that the MIDI Merge just can't handle. If that's the case and you're using combis on the Kronos, you might take a look to see if you're generating extra data that you don't need. If that's the case, and it is indeed just overloading the MIDI Merge unit, maybe some fine tuning would help prevent future adventures.

As an aside, my 30 year old Roland JV 2080 got the same flood of data and never even blinked, while the brand new flagship Fantom begged for mercy. I think that's pretty lame, but I got great support from Roland so I didn't poke them in the ribs about this.

Of course, all gear has it's limitations, it's just a matter of finding out where it squeaks. I don't know if this is relevant to your problems or not, but discovering that a) combis send data out an EXT / EXT2 channel even when muted and b) the Kronos sends a lot of sysex were useful bits of information for me so I know where the limits are.

Hope this helps. And if it's not relevant, well, this was five minutes of your life you're never getting back.

Very interesting information you're sharing!

Just to make things even more clear. My KBD/MIDI set up is like this: I have a Yamaha S90ES as my 88-key only used as a controller to play sounds from the Kronos, a Roland Integra-7 and Roland D-05. Always- and only sending on S90ES MIDI Ch1 out to MIDI in on the Kronos 2-61. From the Kronos I go from MIDI Out and MIDI Thru to each of the MIDI In ports on the MIDI Merge box. Then I go from the two MIDI Out ports on the MIDI merge box to the MIDI in ports of the Integra 7 and Roland D-05 respectively. In this way I can play which ever sound I want from all devices (except S90ES) separately or layered in what ever way I choose from both keyboards.

I exclusively use Combis or Songs on the Kronos and it is interesting that you mention that SysEx messages are transmitted even though EXT2 tracks are muted on the Kronos. When I think about the stuck MIDI notes, if I remember correctly, I'm almost 100% sure that it is always the sounds from the Integra-7 that are being stuck. And the issue only occur when I play sounds from the Integra on the Kronos keyboard, never when I play sounds from the Integra on the S90ES keyboard. At the same time it is strange that stuck MIDI notes never occur when I use the old MIDI Man 2x2 merge box.

I have besides the issue with stuck notes experienced that even if I disable all kinds of MIDI filters that I don't need on all tracks in the Combo, changing Combi and thereby sending Program Change messages to the Integra-7 for it to also change Studio Set, in some cases causes certain parameters to unwantedly change on the Integra. This even if I have disabled all receiving MIDI messages on the Integra and disabled sending of Control Change messages from the Kronos. I've never succeded to solve this.

I definitely need to check the SysEx Global setting on the Kronos.

When it comes to the issue with the sustain pedal, this was easier to pin point since the issue appeared on both keyboards when I connected the malfunctioning pedal. The issue was also reproduced at the local music dealer when I returned the pedal. As far as i know there is some kind of circuit board inside the Roland DP-10 so probably there is some issue with that.

[CliveJ]

Yeah - sysex: Totally upset my HydraSynth - unwanted program, volume and modulation changes and probably a few I didn’t notice. All at the point I selected a different song. I work exclusively in sequencer mode as a solo player.

Once I turned off sysex in the Kronos all the problems disappeared.

[V-man]

Yeah - sysex: Totally upset my HydraSynth - unwanted program, volume and modulation changes and probably a few I didn’t notice. All at the point I selected a different song. I work exclusively in sequencer mode as a solo player.

Once I turned off sysex in the Kronos all the problems disappeared.

I checked Global Settings and SysEx is disabled. I think I did that a while ago troubleshooting the unwanted parameter changes on the Integra 7 switching to certain Studio Sets by sending program change from the Kronos, but that did not help. ...and apparently it did not stop the sticking of notes either.

I notice also that in the Global Settings there is this "SEQ MIDI Out Setup" section which I have never touched. Does anyone now if this can play a role in all this? It is currently set like this in my Kronos:

Song Track = for Master
ParamEdit = SysEx Param Change

[ChrisDuncan]

Yeah - sysex: Totally upset my HydraSynth - unwanted program, volume and modulation changes and probably a few I didn’t notice. All at the point I selected a different song. I work exclusively in sequencer mode as a solo player.

Once I turned off sysex in the Kronos all the problems disappeared.

Yeah, Clive's the one who turned me on to the sysex thing when I was debugging the Fantom. Thanks, Clive!

[ChrisDuncan]

I exclusively use Combis or Songs on the Kronos and it is interesting that you mention that SysEx messages are transmitted even though EXT2 tracks are muted on the Kronos.

All the CCs transmit when muted as well (Korg, I love you guys, but do you not understand what "mute" means?). However, it sounds like you've already been through all the MIDI filter pages to turn things off.

Since you can kill the problem by swapping out the Midi Merge, it certainly seems like the culprit.

[CliveJ]

Rather than mute you can set a combi or sequencer track to disabled.

EDIT: Parameters Manual, page 429 says the mute button determines whether or not the timbre will sound. I guess that makes a bit of sense if you temporarily want to drop a sound out of the mix to hear something else better. I’m also guessing they are referring to the internal timbre.

EDIT: Page 429 states that the “Off” setting, disables the timbre, releases EXi fixed resources and does not transmit MIDI data. This implies to me that a muted track will still transmit MIDI.

Interesting paragraph in the Parameters Manual, page 787:-

System exclusive, Off (unchecked): “System exclusive will not be transmitted. Normally you would leave this unchecked.”

Interesting that this setting is enabled out of the box.

…and it was a pleasure Chris! I learned “stuff”. Since our last communication I got the Kronos doing basic Freestyler DMX lighting control at my last gig - made a hell of a difference to the ambiance.

[CliveJ]

I think there may be some confusion with regard to sysex:

SysEx is a global data transmission and does not include channel numbers. Muting or disabling a track will not prevent sysex transmission due to its nature. In other words the Kronos is generating the data, not the track.

When you select a program, combi or sequence Kronos can transmit the definition of the entire setup for that item as sysex. A connected Kronos would then be able to configure itself to the same setup. I don’t understand exactly why you would want to do this but it’s only one use for sysex - it is used for timecode and even firmware updates on some devices, to name a couple.

Interestingly the manual says Kronos will still transmit a sysex dump on demand regardless of whether the sysex transmit option is turned off in Global, but that does makes sense.

Pitchbend and LFO depth are controller data, not sysex, and can therefore be transmitted on a named channel.

I think the issue Chris and I were having was buffer overflow in some of the devices. I’m guessing that the device knew, for while that there was sysex it could ignore, but when the overflow occurred it tried to interpret the data it had left and made a mess of it.

I’m no MIDI expert so maybe a guru will chime in with a better explanation.

[ChrisDuncan]

I think the issue Chris and I were having was buffer overflow

This happens more than I'd like, sometimes diagnosed as CRS (Can't Remember Sh*t).