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XS7 Kurzweil PC3
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Bubba



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Deep South

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a chance to play one last week. My expectations were really not that high. It's been a while since I've owned a Kurzweil (K-2000). The one I played had not been upgraded to the V1 OS. To be honest (and I'm a huge Korg freak), it was one of the best sounding synths I've ever heard. I played it standing up (it was on the middle teir) for at least one and a half hours. I played about one third of the sounds, quickly scrolling through the rest. There's definetely no hype here. The new Fatar action is very nice- no comparison to other or older Kurzweil keybeds. It really feels like a very nice spinet if you know what I mean. I think the PC3x (I played the weighted version) will really compliment any of the big three. It's just different, and I really liked it way more than I thought I would. I thought the sounds were fantastic.

As far as the build quality- it's built like a tank-absolutely top notch. As far as I can tell it's the best built one out there. The fadars are so sweet. Very, very solid and nice. I did miss not having a larger screen or display. It's almost like going back in time with the current display. Just spoiled by Korg's. I've been looking for a replacement for my CP-300. Can't wait to get my hands on the G8. But for now the PC3x is really stuck in my head. Wink
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Bubba
Gear: Yamaha CP-300; Trinity V3; Triton EX-76
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tcornishmn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 196
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerzwhile wrote:


Unlike EVERYBODY else Kurzweil makes their OWN chips for SOUND! NOT for cell phones and computer, like every other synth company bastardized to work in their systems!


Daz is right - we've got to get rid of this BS. I'm an Oasys owner and it is FAR and AWAY the best platform I've ever owned whollistically. My PC3 is great and sounds great, but that's because of the skill of the Kurzweil sound engineers, not because it doesn't use cell phone chips.

Hardware differences boil down to basically two things - how much DSP is available, and how much latency a design has. Everything else is simply math, and you can't tell me that 2+2 sounds better on a Kurz custom DSP than a Pentium.

Some people claim that the Oasys is nothing but an expensive soft synth running on a computer. That's not really true - Korg chose an EXTREMELY powerful DSP platform - the Pentium, and then basically built it the same way that any other modern firmware-based board works - a small "operating system" and a bunch of very efficient DSP software. It's not especially different from a Motif, Fantom, Triton/M3, whatever - the main difference is in the quantity of DSP power available from a mainstream CPU compared to various ASICs used by other vendors, and even Korg, and of course excellent programming and sound design.
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Kerzwhile
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 198
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz wrote:
Kerzwhile wrote:
Unlike EVERYBODY else Kurzweil makes their OWN chips for SOUND! NOT for cell phones and computer, like every other synth company bastardized to work in their systems!


The quality of the sound created in a software based instrument depends primarily on the quality of the code/algorithms and samples used, not the platform on which it runs. The Triton used a dedicated custom tone generator chip, but the Oasys uses a generic Pentium IV ... does the Triton sound better than the Oasys, I think not.

Daz.

Excellent point but we are talking about Hardware synths here!! Its unfair to compare a Triton to an Oasys!! The O will sound as good as the code its given! and how good the DAC is!!
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MY Weapons of choice: K2600X, Oasys88, PC3X, K2661, V-Synth, MotifESR, ZR-76, TS-12, VFX, EPS16+,ESQ-1, ESQ-1R, Emu Xtreme Lead, SCI Six Trak, HR-16, Kurzweil Mark 150 Baby Grand and 2 D1600's synced!!!
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tcornishmn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerzwhile wrote:

Excellent point but we are talking about Hardware synths here!! Its unfair to compare a Triton to an Oasys!! The O will sound as good as the code its given! and how good the DAC is!!


The Oasys is a hardware synth. The Motif will sound as good as the code it's given too.
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Kerzwhile
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="tcornishmn"]
Kerzwhile wrote:




Hardware differences boil down to basically two things - how much DSP is available, and how much latency a design has. Everything else is simply math, and you can't tell me that 2+2 sounds better on a Kurz custom DSP than a Pentium.

Some people claim that the Oasys is nothing but an expensive soft synth

Come On!!! You cannot compare a DSP chip to A Pentium! Thats like comparing a Vespa to a Porche!! I too AM A HUGE Korg Oasys Fan! Im just trying to compare Apples to Apples Here!!! The Oasys is in a league of its own! I Did not even bring it into the equation because its not fair! NOTHING beats the Oasys!! Yet Wink
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tcornishmn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerzwhile wrote:

Come On!!! You cannot compare a DSP chip to A Pentium! Thats like comparing a Vespa to a Porche!! I too AM A HUGE Korg Oasys Fan! Im just trying to compare Apples to Apples Here!!! The Oasys is in a league of its own! I Did not even bring it into the equation because its not fair! NOTHING beats the Oasys!! Yet Wink


OK - deal. How about this: 2+2 sounds the same on a custom Kurz DSP and a Motif XS stock "cellphone chip". It's all about the programming.

I will confess that you got me at least partially - the D/A converters do make a difference, and of course the source samples, but again, neither of these things have to do with custom DSP hardware being better than "stock" DSP hardware, AKA cellphone chips, or even Pentiums.

I love my PC3 - don't get me wrong. Let's just stay in the realm of meaningful facts, not worthless marketing BS. There is no shortage of good stuff to say about the PC3:

The PC3's programming, especially the classic keys things like Rhodes and Wurlys are fabulous - better than the Oasys even. Some aspects of how the Kurz works as a MIDI controller are better than anything else out there, Oasys included.
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Daz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerzwhile wrote:

Come On!!! You cannot compare a DSP chip to A Pentium! Thats like comparing a Vespa to a Porche!!


I can, as I am a software engineer and know what the difference is, in a very real way Wink

They are both microprocessors running software and a modern high end DSP chip can readily keep pace with a Pentium IV 2.8Ghz. The Access Virus, Waldorf Q and many other excellent current synths use DSP chips. The Oasys PCI used DSP chips and was very strong too (still have mine).

The most important here is not the choice of ASIC, DSP or a CPU, but rather the human element ... which as a developer I find it frustrating that people seem to ignore ... people, creative people are writing software. It's an art, you don't just "write a low pass filter", there are a myriad ways of doing it and each offers differences in sound quality and performance.

Daz.
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Kerzwhile
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
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Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am just gonna crawl back into my little corner and shut up not!! Seeing as how I had been schooled!!! Embarassed Wink Seriously!! Shocked
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stefanlindmark



Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

As a new owner of a PC3X I just came across this discussion. Some audio demo goodies below... read on Exclamation

While I wouldn't know any of the hardware inside it, I bought mine because I wanted a keyboard that would sound good and let me have all the sounds I need without programming or buying expansion cards. And so far it has done all of this. You sit down, you play, it sounds great, you can't stop playing. All I wanted.

As I've played both OS v0.9 and v1.0 I can tell you there are numerous and big differences, especially in the sound programming with some core sounds still missing in 0.9 (when even the #001 piano wasn't in there yet).

Since there aren't any demos available from Kurzweil on the net, I just plugged mine into my laptop, recorded some stuff and uploaded as mp3 (link below). There's a lot of speculation and rumours about the PC3X, so I thought this would give more people a chance to listen themselves, even if it's compressed and all.

Demos starting with "Kurz Demo" come with the board. Most of the demos are actually single-program "demo riffs" except "Teksong" and "3 part demo" that are multitimbral. But don't be fooled, even the monotimbral demos can be quite dynamic as you will notice.

Demos not starting with "Kurz Demo" are homemade by myself. They're monotimbral using a single program.
"Carmina Burana Intro" is an exception, because it's a stack of programs (or a Setup, in Kurzweil terms). On the other hand that one was played using only max 4 fingers on the keys (as an experiment).

All of my demos are played live in one continuous take using no sequencing, no overdubbing and so far no pedals/controllers. I'm a mere hobby player and this was recorded during the very first exciting hours with the board, so expect plenty of authentic human glitches Embarassed

So crank up the volume and listen to the demos here!
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Voltan
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Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Poland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the pianos sound great (as usual with Kurz) but for other sounds I'd stay with my M3 Wink
strings sound pretty cool too
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MartinHines
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Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3037
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerzwhile wrote:


Greg, Have YOU heard the PC3?? It IS a SONIC improvement. Unlike EVERYBODY else Kurzweil makes their OWN chips for SOUND! NOT for cell phones and computer, like every other synth company bastardized to work in their systems!


I think you have been misinformed here (i.e. Kurzweil marketing claims about custom chips).

At least according to the thread below, Korg, Yamaha, and Roland ALL use custom made chips in their high-end products:
http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=34828&st=40&p=207974&#entry207974


I think Kurzweil marketing took a little creative license with their comments about custom chips.
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Daz
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefanlindmark wrote:
As a new owner of a PC3X I just came across this discussion. Some audio demo goodies below...


Hi Stefan,

Thanks for taking the trip over from SonikMatter Wink But more so, thanks for sharing these demos - I have a K2661 (a fine instrument!) and was keen to hear how the new beast sounded !

Daz.
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Dniss
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Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: Pale blue dot

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently acquired a K2600 and I must say I'm very disappointed at the lack of resources on the net for the K series. After a month I haven't been able to find a decent forum.

I'm totally puzzled that a keyboard used by so many professional musicians has so little sound available. Aside from the usual Sweetwater sounds and 2 or 3 commercial cds, I haven't found anything worth mentioning. Most links are usually dead.

Do you have to be a sound engineer to unleash the power of the K?

I'd highly appreciate if any of you K* owners would post interesting sites, if there is such a thing. Anyone tried the vintage collection cd? Is it worth it? I'm mostly into vintage synth sound.

TIA
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fjs714
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Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: kurzweil pc3x Reply with quote

Hi Kerzwhile,
I initially started this thread because I was chomping at the bit to trade in my fantom x for either a Motif xs or Kur pc3. I've heard the on line demos and they sound very nice. Haven't heard one in person because there is only one store in the NYC area that carries the Pc3.
One thing really concerns me. In speaking to some technicians and repair people, I have heard the reliability of the previous Kurz keyboards is questionable. They mentioned that many of the keyboards used on Broadway are older Kurzweils. He was happy because since they continually break down, he always can count on a source of income from them. Can anyone verify this? Great sounding keyboards are nice to play but not if they're constantly being repaired.
Frank
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Synthoid
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Location: PA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dniss wrote:
I recently acquired a K2600 and I must say I'm very disappointed at the lack of resources on the net for the K series.


I was disappointed as well. I purchased a K2661 over 2 years ago and was told there were "thousands of free patches to download" from the Internet. So far I have found maybe 100 patches--only a few that are actually usable, and a lot of dead links.

It was such a hit-or-miss thing, I mean....here at Korgforums, people upload full banks of 128 patches. But when I looked online for K-series sounds, I'd find a dozen on one site, maybe 20 or 30 elsewhere.....no full banks. And it seemed like nobody uploaded any setups.

Sad
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