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Kronos MIDI patch change / program/combi change?
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AlexJoKeys



Joined: 21 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Kronos MIDI patch change / program/combi change? Reply with quote

Hi all,

Is their a way to change program/combi via MIDI and in-between combi/program patches? I know it can be a pain programming two keyboards to synchronise patch changes, so I'm happy to use my laptop to bring everything together...

I basically have a Kronos, and a Roland FA keyboard and I want to possibly use MainStage to save settings. Then when I click (next song) in main stage, both keyboards will switch to the correct patches? - Currently, I've only been able to get the Kronos to switch to numbers within the same program bank e.g. If its in Program mode, I could only get it to switch to a patch within the selected bank (or if in setlist mode, it just cycles through the setlist instead of changing bank......) - Im i doing something wrong to get this result?

Or would it be possible to create patches on setlist mode, which would send patch change MIDI messages to my other keyboard from the Kronos?

Thanks,
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to switch between Program/Combis/Songs/Sequences/Set Lists via MIDI, but I believe it requires sending a Mode Change SYSEX message to the Kronos on the Kronos's global MIDI channel before sending a Bank Select command followed by Program Change command. The simplest thing to do is put everything into a Set List and send program changes to only the Set List. But if you really want to switch modes, then:

One way to find out what the SYSEX message is to "record" it in an external sequencer while switching modes. Otherwise, you can refer to the MIDI System Exclusive Documentation (.zip) . If you're not familiar with deciphering SYSEX messages it can be a bit daunting at first.

The messages for sending a Mode Change are:

Quote:
[4E] Mode Change Receive/Transmit
F0, 42, 3g, 68 Excl Header
4E Function
0000 mmmm Mode (*5)
F7 End of Excl


*5
mmm = 0 : COMBINATION
1 : reserved
2 : PROGRAM
3 : reserved
4 : SEQUENCER
5 : reserved
6 : SAMPLING
7 : GLOBAL
8 : DISK
9 : SET LIST


So, if you want to switch to Program Mode, the SYSEX string is (I think, based on the docs): F0, 42, 3g, 68, 4E, 0000 0002, F7

Switching the mode to Combination should be: F0, 42, 3g, 68, 4E, 0000 0000, F7

(The values in bold above, I'm not entirely certain about... maybe somebody could confirm if they're correct or incorrect. I have no way of testing it...).

OK, that's just the Mode Change. To choose a bank, you need to send Bank Select messages. These are CC#0 for the upper byte, and CC#32 for the lower byte. For example, within a Program or Combi, to change to bank INT-D, you would send the following CCs and values:

CC 0, 00
CC 32, 03

There is a chart of all the bank select changes on pages 749 & 750 in the Parameter Guide.

Note: The Kronos won't actually change banks until after you've sent a Program Change message following the Bank Select message.

So the general structure for the entire process is:

MODE CHANGE (Sysex) >> Bank Select >> Program Change. You need to send all of these on the Kronos's global MIDI channel.

When you're in SET LIST mode, it will receive Program Change commands to select a slot on the Kronos's global channel only. These should work just like program changes in Program Mode or Combi mode. If it's not working, then try to record slot changes and see what the Kronos is transmitting.
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AlexJoKeys



Joined: 21 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thanks, I will look into this tonight. Do you know if it matters what MIDI channel it receives the patch change commands? Also, for a multi-keyboard rig using multiple keyboards of different brands, would you recommend using a MIDI interface to interconnect keyboards with the computer or using a USB hub to connect all the keyboards via USB?...

^ By MIDI channel I mean, does it matter what 'global' channel is? Because Kronos is set by default Gch - so does it matter what MIDI channel it is operating on?
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does very much matter which MIDI channel these commands are sent on; it doesn't really matter which Global MIDI Channel the Kronos is set to.

The default global MIDI channel for the Kronos is MIDI channel 1. You can confirm/change this on the Global P1: MIDI screen. Make sure you send on whatever channel that is set to, otherwise you won't get the desired results. (Note: "Gch" simply means global channel inside of the Kronos -- it's a shortcut parameter designed to capture whatever the global MIDI channel is set to.) Apart from possibly getting odd results with some KARMAfied combis, you can set the Kronos to any Global MIDI Channel you'd like.

For example, you're playing a combi. If you send on anything that is not the global channel, you'll either get no program change, or more likely it will change a timbre/program assigned to that MIDI channel inside of the combi (this could be desirable in some circumstances, though). If you're in SET LIST mode and you send a program change on any other channel except the Global Channel, nothing at all will happen.

I can't personally recommend whether you should use an interface or a USB hub. It's a matter of personal preference/convenience. USB is possibly simpler, probably a lot cheaper, and certainly means less cabling overall. I have a lot of older keyboards that don't have USB connections, so I need an interface to connect them to a PC.
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LZ
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That SysEx doesn't look right. The 0000's likely need to be converted to Hex, just my guess. You can try hooking the MIDI out to some sequencing software and hit record while you press the different mode buttons. You should be able to capture the correct SysEx for each.
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jeebustrain
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a simpler approach would be to take all the individual programs you plan on using and make simple 1-timbre Combis and just send all of your patch changes in Combi mode. That way you don't have to mess with switching between the two.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="LZ"]That SysEx doesn't look right. The 0000's likely need to be converted to Hex, just my guess.</quote>

I didn't think it was right either (I haven't bothered with Sysex in a long time, to be honest). I suppose the conversion is simply two digits, e.g. 00, 01, 02, 03 ... 09.

F0, 42, 3g, 68, 4E, 02, F7 for Program Mode

F0, 42, 3g, 68, 4E, 00, F7 for Combi Mode

***EDIT: just found this post: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=456793#456793

fclef wrote:
To change the mode from your DAW, insert one of these sysex parameters:
For SetList: F0 42 30 68 4E 09 F7
For Combi mode: F0 42 30 68 4E 00 F7
For Program mode: F0 42 30 68 4E 02 F7
For Sequence mode: F0 42 30 68 4E 04 F7
For Sampling mode: F0 42 30 68 4E 06 F7
Note: these are zeros, not the letter O


These strings are slightly different from the ones I found in the Sysex docs. One of the two variants ought to work.***


LZ wrote:
You can try hooking the MIDI out to some sequencing software and hit record while you press the different mode buttons. You should be able to capture the correct SysEx for each.


That's a good way of figuring out Sysex strings - I mentioned that above.

jeebustrain wrote:
I think a simpler approach would be to take all the individual programs you plan on using and make simple 1-timbre Combis and just send all of your patch changes in Combi mode. That way you don't have to mess with switching between the two.


Agree. Or one could stay in Set List, but the OP had issues with changing slots. I tend to copy most of my single programs into combis anyway, but that's for providing more flexibility with KARMA and getting 16 additional controls via the Master Layer, rather than only having the Module Layer to work with in Program mode.
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LZ
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, if you're ONLY using mains taiga to set things up, that's overkill. You could create a combi for everything and use one track to do the Roland changes, the just use set list mode, and done.

What Brian suggests reminds me of my old rig - an Alesis fusion (which he had also Wink ) and a Korg triton. Fusion stayed in song mode all the time - even if it was just a piano patch - a song with no midi data, just a piano patch. Triton stayed in combi all the time, same deal. Fusion songs changed triton combis, that way, didn't mater if it was a sequence, combi, one keyboard, two....arranged songs in order of the set list and everything worked.

You could do something like that easily on the Kronos, and set list mode is very nice.


But if you're dead set on controlling from main stage, it can be done once you get a handle on the sysex.
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jeebustrain
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LZ wrote:
Yeah, if you're ONLY using mains taiga to set things up, that's overkill. You could create a combi for everything and use one track to do the Roland changes, the just use set list mode, and done.

What Brian suggests reminds me of my old rig - an Alesis fusion (which he had also Wink ) and a Korg triton. Fusion stayed in song mode all the time - even if it was just a piano patch - a song with no midi data, just a piano patch. Triton stayed in combi all the time, same deal. Fusion songs changed triton combis, that way, didn't mater if it was a sequence, combi, one keyboard, two....arranged songs in order of the set list and everything worked.

You could do something like that easily on the Kronos, and set list mode is very nice.


But if you're dead set on controlling from main stage, it can be done once you get a handle on the sysex.


That's what I do even now - every sound, even if it's a single sound is in a combi, which is then referenced in a Setlist slot. That way I can adjust things like levels or effects without messing with the original program (which lots of times gets reused between different slots). It makes it a lot easier to level things off from a dynamic perspective so the volume level between songs is consistent.
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LZ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I don't currently do that myself, I have to say that it's a pretty smart way to do things for a number of reasons.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do this using setlist maker on my iPad. It's important that there's a small delay between sending the SysEx and the bank/program change. I use .3 seconds.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I do normally is use one combi (or sometimes two cosnecutive) per song we play in the band, this means if I only need 1 program, I make a combi using that 1 program.

I normally sort all the combis I use by author (I use normally author-name) pattern. So I sort them alphabetically.

Then in the set list I make one set list slot per combi and those I automatically sort by song name. Or by order within the gig.

If you need to control (set a program change) for another controller (I don't need because I only use 1 sound board), than you can set up the program change in the combi (using one of the 16 timbres, possibly the last) to auto send the program change to your Roland.
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jeebustrain
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michelkeijzers wrote:
What I do normally is use one combi (or sometimes two cosnecutive) per song we play in the band, this means if I only need 1 program, I make a combi using that 1 program.

I normally sort all the combis I use by author (I use normally author-name) pattern. So I sort them alphabetically.

Then in the set list I make one set list slot per combi and those I automatically sort by song name. Or by order within the gig.

If you need to control (set a program change) for another controller (I don't need because I only use 1 sound board), than you can set up the program change in the combi (using one of the 16 timbres, possibly the last) to auto send the program change to your Roland.


I agree with the controlling program changes from Kronos option being ideal. In various configurations, I've managed program changes to a V-Synth, a Kurz PC361, and my VoiceLive harmonizer. When my GSI Burn arrives next week, I'll be sending program change info to that, too. The Kronos just makes it too easy.
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AlexJoKeys



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replays! Its really helpful, you all have great knowledge...

SanderXpander wrote:
I do this using setlist maker on my iPad. It's important that there's a small delay between sending the SysEx and the bank/program change. I use .3 seconds.



WHATTTTTTT!!!! Please could you explain how you have managed to do this? And what connection method did you connect the Kronos to iPad with?

- A drummer i work with is using this app and it looks great. At the moment I'm kind of getting sheet music/chord structure sheets in dropbox/pages and reading off them and adding 'prog/combi' instructions for my self and trying to quickly change settings. It would be better for me to do this in setlist maker...

I originally thought of using MainStage like setlist maker, with the addition that it would host soft synths aswel. But if i could use setlist maker, that would sort out the keyboard rig and ide be able to sort out mainstage/software manually..
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, firstly, if there are any fixed medleys or otherwise multiple different sounds used per song, I make sure they are in a setlist on the Kronos, and in order. For the rest, I create midi presets in Setlist Maker:

1. Use the SysEx strings above to switch the K into whatever mode you want. It always works I think unless you're actually browsing the patch list on the K.
2. Use whatever bank/program select message for that mode
3. In the database preferences, find where you can set the order for the midi preset data, and make sure SysEx is sent first. Also put in a delay of 0.3 seconds between the SysEx and the PC.
4. In the automation preferences, tell setlist maker to automatically send the midi preset when you select the song.
5. I use the USB camera kit, so the connection from Kronos to iPad is direct USB.

Basically I only send the first sound/preset I use for the song or medley, that's why I put any necessary subsequent sounds in order in a setlist. You can attach multiple midi presets to a song but I honestly find it easier to just hit the next big square on the Kronos screen.

It takes a little time to set up right but when you've got it going it's a great way to reorganize songs on the fly without having to scramble for sounds.


Last edited by SanderXpander on Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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