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jimknopf
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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 Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Kevin has always been a fan of heavy layering. 
But apart from a few exceptions named, extreme layering (apart from SOME layers of sounds in many areas) doesn't play any major role in modern music making. So companies will surely not put any major efforts into this goal, especially not after Roland's advertising of layering power for the JP80 has miserably failed, for more than one reason. It's not what most musicians are after, beyond moderate layering possibilities. Simple as that.
I agree completely with Bacchus: the Montage has some nice aspects to it, both concerning sounds and UI. But it does not offer any convincing overall concept, neither being a performance keyboard making sense, nor a workstation. And it is much too expensive for being a self-contradicting, heavy-weight and hard to carry (not just weight, but dimensions as well) mixture of some good things and a lot of silly limitations.
I even doubt meanwhile, that it will be generally accepted as Motif successor by Yamahas core group of Motif owners, after talking with some of them.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| That last part I definitely agree with. But I do play a lot of live dance and the built in side-chain ducking and all that does have me intrigued. It's not an all in one for me like the Kronos but I still look forward to playing one. |
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jimknopf
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: |
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But what does side-chain ducking help, when the sampled synth sounds are that lame and tame as I hear them in the deomos? No bite, no character at all IMHO. It just doesn't make much sense without proper VAs.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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That's why I want to play one
I agree the demos don't sound very exciting but I also would never have used FM at all for modern sounds going by a DX7 demo.
I hope they will continue to evolve the product, we shall see. |
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Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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It needs to be said that Yamaha emphasized that the Montage as demonstrated at NAMM is by no means the definitive end product and will evolve.
It could mean that they will revise some of the decisions they made and implement certain features which now are lacking.
I think they cut away too much and will end up losing Motif users in spite of the compromises they made towards the traditional workstation users.
In one of the videos Blake mentioned that the reason why Yamaha did not release another Motif is because of the trend in the market: a downward slope for workstations, and upward slope for synthesizers.
And I think they decided on a compromise in the form of the Montage to avoid losing their Motif users.
Aside from that, there's a whole lot more behind the demand slopes, such as the rise of analog synthesizers, the stagnant development in the workstation market where the next generation is just a minor variation on the previous one and people simply are not prepared to pay yet another $3000 for a variation on what they already have.
The KRONOS was very different from the M3, and I'm sure KORG has seen this difference reflected in the sales figures for the KRONOS. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | Kevin Nolan wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | I hate to disappoint you Kevin, but a "part" is either eight AWM2 elements OR up to eight operators of the FM-X engine. I really don't see why you would ever need 1024 voices on one key anyway. |
Of course a Part is either AWM or FM - that's obvious - there's no mixing of synth engines in that regard (as there is with the SY77 and 99) - we've already covered that in other posts.
And - nobody needs any of this! But tell me - how many strings do you need in an orchestra? How many synthesizers did Vangelis need for Bladerunner? How many times did Tomita Layer the RS202 to create his strings? How many times does ENYA sing each choral line (answer - 400 times)??
You mean to say - that because you don't see a need - that you legislate on who needs what in terms of number of sound sources?? You can't see a need, so there isn't one? Is that your claim? Really??
In any case - the actual point is - the 'scope' of options is any combination of one to 1024 oscillators in any synthesized way you want. I do accept however that I got that wrong - it's a maximum of 128 oscillators on one note. But there's scope for imagination and creativity in that quite vast, extraordinary and unique domain. That's the point! |
Maybe it's just the way we argue but somehow we always seem to get off on the wrong foot. I'm not "legislating" what anyone needs at all or "claiming" anything and I strongly object to you putting words in my mouth. If you feel that you do need 1024 oscillators on one note, more power to you. I can't imagine many useful sounds that would honestly need a 1024 oscillators to make. This is a bizarre discussion anyway. I'm all for musical exploration and new sounds. But if I made a synth tomorrow that could put 4096 oscillators on one note it's not more musically useful to me than one that can put, say, 128 on one note. You can do whatever you want. You can also do like Enya and record your one oscillator 400 times. |
Once again - the point being - between 1 oscillator, and many oscillators, passed through a complex synthesiser engine, there are lost of options. Here are some:
FM Synthesis
Additive Synthesis
Ring Modulation
Hard Sync
X-Modulation
Layering
Velocity cross-fading
and so on.
Broadly - the more oscillators the better. For example, an orchestra uses 16 first violins and 14 2nd violins for the rich sound that delivers due to minute changes in timing, pitch and phase of all of those notes (oscillators). The same applies to a choir.
So - there are some reasons to use many oscillators, and the more the better. For example, AL-1 can, at a stretch, layer about 64 or more oscillators. If you have n OASYS or Kronos, go to the download section of this site and download my AL-1 programs and check our Unison and CS80 Bass programs for such layering. Play around with them as single notes with varying velocity and turning the filter open. I think you'll agree it has its uses.
Montage will deliver admirably in this regard. A very good example historically of two 8-operator algorithmic programs played together and sounding sublime is the GS1 Keyboard solo by TOTO on the song Africa, where both an 8-operator Marimba and Flute are layered.
Montage can layer 16 such programs - surely a domain for extraordinary scope and nuance, given how sophisticated even one FM-X program is
As said - because you can't imagine a use for more oscillators, and seem to be quite condescending to anyone proposing such usage, does not render invalid the concept. Music is replete with exquisite examples (some of which I've given here). |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok! |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Despite all the missing features..... I keep being impressed by the massiveness of the sound..
http://youtu.be/wfAxxav4PUU |
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Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Ha, if anyone is able to make a convincing case in favor of an instrument it's Katsunori Ujiie.
I'm definitely going to check out the Montage once it's in the stores. |
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Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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The Tyros is a far cry from what arrangers used to be a few decades ago.
It's very realistic and musical. Maybe Yamaha decided to transfer the role of workstation from the Motif line to the Tyros.
I'm wondering what they will come up with in the Tyros 6, which should be due sometime this year if I'm not mistaken? |
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padking
Full Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 178
Location: Laval,quebec
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | Despite all the missing features..... I keep being impressed by the massiveness of the sound..
http://youtu.be/wfAxxav4PUU |
Best demo so far, didn't understand a single word
but that gentleman is the best.(the CC are ????)
The montage sound's great, the more I ear the
better it's sound.
The performances are great, but sometime they get so complicated that there not playable anymore,you have to be careful not to over use them.
Padking |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi SanderXpander - I just want to send to you an apology in public for being a bit too uptight and "snotty" with you on discussions here over past days.
I find your posts always insightful and enjoy such broad discussion - so once again - my apology to you for being a bit of a prig toward you in this instance.
I hope we can have many more discussion on synths and keyboards of all kinds in the future, where I'll not be so condescending
Kevin. |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin,
At least you post lucid examples of why you want certain features. We may not necessarily agree with having all of those oscillators on one note (which I have done myself @ velocity 127!) but you give good examples on why.
> The Tyros is a far cry from what arrangers used to be a few decades ago.
I never thought it would get to the point where the "arranger" would sound better/more realists than my top of the line synthesizer.
HOWEVER, check the price of the Tyros!
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: |
Hi SanderXpander - I just want to send to you an apology in public for being a bit too uptight and "snotty" with you on discussions here over past days.
I find your posts always insightful and enjoy such broad discussion - so once again - my apology to you for being a bit of a prig toward you in this instance.
I hope we can have many more discussion on synths and keyboards of all kinds in the future, where I'll not be so condescending
Kevin. |
Thanks Kevin, it's ok, we all have our off days. Funny thing is I expect we would probably not really disagree all that much if we were making music together. You like layering more than I do, but I'm pretty sure there is a point where we would both feel it is not useful to layer more. Otherwise every note we ever play would be a layer of all the oscillators of all the synths we ever we owned. I respect that you like instruments that offer large sonic possibilities. I do too. My comment about not being able to imagine needing that many oscillators on one note is purely based on my personal needs and expectations and perhaps a guess of Yamaha's target audience.
I think we just somehow manage to overstate our own side out of enthusiasm and we react to each others (seemingly) juxtaposed opinions. |
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