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Montage by Yamaha
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Mr_SamDoogie
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the luck of having a wider budget that says "From here what you get you get when all is spend no more" meaning I wont need to ask for anything more the next five to six years.

I've ordered an Montage 7 tried it before off course loved the sounds of it there no comparison to its former predecessors. If you play it there a slight feel of the motif but not much its .. different.

I've tried the seamless switching not sure what to make of it did it with holding a triad and switch to another sound while playing the new one didn't go as I've expected.

I do like the sounds not the semi weighted key's from it they feel like meh, The semi weight of the Kronos feels way better.

I've also got an Kronos Platinum pending as I said I got lucky.
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Mosquita Muerta



Joined: 23 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the Montage doubles the Motif on parts it is no longer billed as a "workstation". It is billed as a "performance" synth. That's it's whole MO. Somewhere in the Montage development stages the power and potential for 16 parts under keyboard control was aborted (most likely set aside for the next generation) It's a powerful hardware synth for sure and it is fully capable of 16 parts multitimbral which has been proven. I love playing all 16 FMX parts using my MIDI jumper solution.

I think each part can be comprised of up to 8 waveforms so you could build more "instruments" into a "part" and find a way to harness that ability in real time by switching waveforms on/off as desired. Might get confusing though but it's possible.

Although the MIDI workaround works I get a MIDI signal delay (negligible but present) and slowed touch screen performance. I'm guessing that during testing something appeared unsatisfactory to the development team and so the limitation was born. They probably didn't want any limitations appearing i.e. EX5 so they confined the system to 8 parts. But it can do 16 parts with limitations.

Perhaps Yamaha will reconsider the design and state such limitations openly and then update the OS to allow for internal routing without MIDI delay for 16 part usage. One limitation will remain that only 8 of those 16 will be under motion control which is fine because 16 parts under motion control is probably not currently possible within the system parameters or abilities. I'm only speculating but maybe it is possible. How robust is this system I wonder and are they dealing with hardware or software only issues?

I feel like they wanted to test the waters with the Montage initially and determine how well it would be received being such a paradigm shift from the typical workstation. I'm quite astounded by the Montage. I was bored by the Motif ROMpler and only bought the XS but then sold it. The excitement factor for me has been a solid 10 out of 10 with the Montage but then again I don't have any specific professional needs like some of you guys out there. Therefore I'm really thrilled with my Montage 8.
Keep in mind that the Kronos doing 16 parts can only do 2 or 4 (whatever their terminology is) sounds per part whereas the Montage can do 8 I think. It's a give and take between the 2 synths and their architecture.

I'll have to try the AWMs 16 part test again. The FMX worked fine. I can't understand the delay caused by MIDI if that's the cause (is it really?)? If you were going to remotely control the Montage via an external keyboard you can't have any MIDI delay even then. You press the remote keyboard key and 0.5 seconds later the Montage plays a note. It has to be an instantaneous MIDI signal or nothing else MIDI doesn't work properly. It's just a signal so I guess I don't understand it.
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ErnstDabest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mosquita Muerta wrote:


I'll have to try the AWMs 16 part test again. The FMX worked fine. I can't understand the delay caused by MIDI if that's the cause (is it really?)? If you were going to remotely control the Montage via an external keyboard you can't have any MIDI delay even then. You press the remote keyboard key and 0.5 seconds later the Montage plays a note. It has to be an instantaneous MIDI signal or nothing else MIDI doesn't work properly. It's just a signal so I guess I don't understand it.


hmmm, it has latency issues too?
Who's advising these synth manufacturers to keep releasing products filled with bugs pretend
to solve the problem with an OS fix.. it's a flawed business model !!!.. eventually people do
catch-on and then stop buying your synths alltogether, esp. now with VSTs as competiton.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I think keyboard owners/musicians are perfectionists by nature.

In this case, I think Yamaha overlooked, at least temporaily some standards.

1) standard midi implementation

2) SST or seamless patch remain/change.
As fast as our Kronos setlist.

3) B+ or "A " grade organs.

we have hashed the above thoroughly, I think.

But its always good to hear from new Montage owners. If I spent $4000 I would be inclined to speak my mind.
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Tschury



Joined: 07 Aug 2014
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Montage by Yamaha Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
jackh wrote:
The Montage and the Kronos both feature great sound sets, but they also have significant differences. The Montage has two sound engines, and the Kronos has nine.
I created a few short demos for each engine, and you can visit korg.com to hear a different engine demo every week.
Here are the links for the SGX-2 and EP-1 demos:
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-sgx2-piano
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-ep1-electric-piano
Smile


The comparison between 2 and 9 engines is superficial, and very "particular".

for example - the filter / DSP capabilities of the Kronos come from the OASYS so that's 12 year old algorithms. Indeed so is HD1 and many of the "engines" you cite.

Montage on the other hand is availing of digital algorithms and technology from today.


Now I'm not trying to be divisive here as I own two OASYS and love them - and as much as I like and use AL-1, PolysixEX and MS20EX and find them exquisite, I have to say that since owning an JP80 and trying an MOX, their filters are FAR better than any of the filters on the OASYS/Kronos.

Again - don't get me wrong AL-1, Poly6 and MS2O are capable - but - they are getting a tad dated in their sonic depth and breath. They could do with an update in my opinion - as per the JP80 update in this regard - as in - offering other, better, more current filter models. But that's never going to happen. So Pianos aside, Kronos is repackaged 12 year old synth technology! Montage on the other hand has a declared developmental path ahead of it which Kronos likely doesn't at this stage.


Also - some of the 'engines' you cite are sample based engines - and in similar vein the Montage Bosonderfer Grand Piano is an equivalent "Engine" to SGX; while FM-X, not used in FM mode, offers an 8 oscillator per voice Virtual Analogue capability. So you could regard that as four engines Smile

[...]


You obviously neither played a Montage nor compared it to the OASYS/Kronos.

I did. The Montage sounds very much like the latest Tyros combined with unspectacular FM synthesis, which cannot compete with the superior MOD-7 or even SY-99 and FS1R FM-engines.

And the OASYS/Kronos' HD-1 engine is based on uncompressed sample data, while Montage's AWM2-engine (AWM2 was introduced in 1989!!!) is solely based on compressed sample data.

The OASYS/Kronos' different Filter models (AL-1, Polysix, MS-20, etc.) cover a vast sound spectrum and sound spectacular compared to the Montage/Tyros Filter model, which is also used for Montage's FM-X engine.

And concerning your praising comments on the JP-80, I have to quote you from http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45948:

"...the JP80 pad sounds are a pale shadow of the capabilities of my JD800 (a pinnacle of pad sounds), while the V-Synth GT VA and AS capabilities coupled to it's superlative OS and Interface are simply on a different plain to the JP80 - there's just no comparison. [...] ... but I have slowly had to admit to myself that I actually hate the JP80 - it is about the most frustrating and over-rates sounding synth I have ever come across, bar none. It feels good to say it! Its like a release (having paid a fortune for the thing its not easy to admit you've made a major mistake!)." -Kevin Nolan
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one observation on this re compression. Are the Montage samples compressed using lossless or lossy compression/ If lossless (and assuming no noticeable delay in decompressing) then compression is a moot point?
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Montage by Yamaha Reply with quote

Tschury wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:
jackh wrote:
The Montage and the Kronos both feature great sound sets, but they also have significant differences. The Montage has two sound engines, and the Kronos has nine.
I created a few short demos for each engine, and you can visit korg.com to hear a different engine demo every week.
Here are the links for the SGX-2 and EP-1 demos:
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-sgx2-piano
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-ep1-electric-piano
Smile


The comparison between 2 and 9 engines is superficial, and very "particular".

for example - the filter / DSP capabilities of the Kronos come from the OASYS so that's 12 year old algorithms. Indeed so is HD1 and many of the "engines" you cite.

Montage on the other hand is availing of digital algorithms and technology from today.


Now I'm not trying to be divisive here as I own two OASYS and love them - and as much as I like and use AL-1, PolysixEX and MS20EX and find them exquisite, I have to say that since owning an JP80 and trying an MOX, their filters are FAR better than any of the filters on the OASYS/Kronos.

Again - don't get me wrong AL-1, Poly6 and MS2O are capable - but - they are getting a tad dated in their sonic depth and breath. They could do with an update in my opinion - as per the JP80 update in this regard - as in - offering other, better, more current filter models. But that's never going to happen. So Pianos aside, Kronos is repackaged 12 year old synth technology! Montage on the other hand has a declared developmental path ahead of it which Kronos likely doesn't at this stage.


Also - some of the 'engines' you cite are sample based engines - and in similar vein the Montage Bosonderfer Grand Piano is an equivalent "Engine" to SGX; while FM-X, not used in FM mode, offers an 8 oscillator per voice Virtual Analogue capability. So you could regard that as four engines Smile

[...]


You obviously neither played a Montage nor compared it to the OASYS/Kronos.

I did. The Montage sounds very much like the latest Tyros combined with unspectacular FM synthesis, which cannot compete with the superior MOD-7 or even SY-99 and FS1R FM-engines.

And the OASYS/Kronos' HD-1 engine is based on uncompressed sample data, while Montage's AWM2-engine (AWM2 was introduced in 1989!!!) is solely based on compressed sample data.

The OASYS/Kronos' different Filter models (AL-1, Polysix, MS-20, etc.) cover a vast sound spectrum and sound spectacular compared to the Montage/Tyros Filter model, which is also used for Montage's FM-X engine.

And concerning your praising comments on the JP-80, I have to quote you from http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45948:

"...the JP80 pad sounds are a pale shadow of the capabilities of my JD800 (a pinnacle of pad sounds), while the V-Synth GT VA and AS capabilities coupled to it's superlative OS and Interface are simply on a different plain to the JP80 - there's just no comparison. [...] ... but I have slowly had to admit to myself that I actually hate the JP80 - it is about the most frustrating and over-rates sounding synth I have ever come across, bar none. It feels good to say it! Its like a release (having paid a fortune for the thing its not easy to admit you've made a major mistake!)." -Kevin Nolan



Regarding those JP80 comments - they were made before they updated the filter models.

But in any case - there's no inconsistency. The JP80 supernatural synth, aliasing issue on PWM waves aside, does sound very good - however - the JD800 has a particular set of capabilities that do leave the JP80 standing - realtime control of an array of parameters, far more capable velocity and aftertouch options and a particular set of samples that allow for very broad and deep (omnisphere like) sound design). This does not mean that the JP80 is dreadful, it just means the JD800 is very special, and why I use seven of them in my facility.


Your prejudiced view on the Montage speaks for itself and is not worth debating
(comparing an 8-operator synth to a Tyros, and disregarding 10 years of digital filter advancements are just two of the plethora of superficialities of your argument not worth pursuing)
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Davd C. Polich
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Joined: 29 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ErnstDabest wrote:
Mosquita Muerta wrote:


I'll have to try the AWMs 16 part test again. The FMX worked fine. I can't understand the delay caused by MIDI if that's the cause (is it really?)? If you were going to remotely control the Montage via an external keyboard you can't have any MIDI delay even then. You press the remote keyboard key and 0.5 seconds later the Montage plays a note. It has to be an instantaneous MIDI signal or nothing else MIDI doesn't work properly. It's just a signal so I guess I don't understand it.


hmmm, it has latency issues too?
Who's advising these synth manufacturers to keep releasing products filled with bugs pretend
to solve the problem with an OS fix.. it's a flawed business model !!!.. eventually people do
catch-on and then stop buying your synths alltogether, esp. now with VSTs as competiton.


VST's (hate that term, there is no such thing as "a VST", it's "VST plugins" or "virtual instruments") are not in direct competition with hardware synths. Never have been. Hardware synths are aimed at a different segment of the market.
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Tschury



Joined: 07 Aug 2014
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:23 am    Post subject: Re: Montage by Yamaha Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Tschury wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:
jackh wrote:
The Montage and the Kronos both feature great sound sets, but they also have significant differences. The Montage has two sound engines, and the Kronos has nine.
I created a few short demos for each engine, and you can visit korg.com to hear a different engine demo every week.
Here are the links for the SGX-2 and EP-1 demos:
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-sgx2-piano
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/kronos-ep1-electric-piano
Smile


The comparison between 2 and 9 engines is superficial, and very "particular".

for example - the filter / DSP capabilities of the Kronos come from the OASYS so that's 12 year old algorithms. Indeed so is HD1 and many of the "engines" you cite.

Montage on the other hand is availing of digital algorithms and technology from today.


Now I'm not trying to be divisive here as I own two OASYS and love them - and as much as I like and use AL-1, PolysixEX and MS20EX and find them exquisite, I have to say that since owning an JP80 and trying an MOX, their filters are FAR better than any of the filters on the OASYS/Kronos.

Again - don't get me wrong AL-1, Poly6 and MS2O are capable - but - they are getting a tad dated in their sonic depth and breath. They could do with an update in my opinion - as per the JP80 update in this regard - as in - offering other, better, more current filter models. But that's never going to happen. So Pianos aside, Kronos is repackaged 12 year old synth technology! Montage on the other hand has a declared developmental path ahead of it which Kronos likely doesn't at this stage.


Also - some of the 'engines' you cite are sample based engines - and in similar vein the Montage Bosonderfer Grand Piano is an equivalent "Engine" to SGX; while FM-X, not used in FM mode, offers an 8 oscillator per voice Virtual Analogue capability. So you could regard that as four engines Smile

[...]


You obviously neither played a Montage nor compared it to the OASYS/Kronos.

I did. The Montage sounds very much like the latest Tyros combined with unspectacular FM synthesis, which cannot compete with the superior MOD-7 or even SY-99 and FS1R FM-engines.

And the OASYS/Kronos' HD-1 engine is based on uncompressed sample data, while Montage's AWM2-engine (AWM2 was introduced in 1989!!!) is solely based on compressed sample data.

The OASYS/Kronos' different Filter models (AL-1, Polysix, MS-20, etc.) cover a vast sound spectrum and sound spectacular compared to the Montage/Tyros Filter model, which is also used for Montage's FM-X engine.

And concerning your praising comments on the JP-80, I have to quote you from http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45948:

"...the JP80 pad sounds are a pale shadow of the capabilities of my JD800 (a pinnacle of pad sounds), while the V-Synth GT VA and AS capabilities coupled to it's superlative OS and Interface are simply on a different plain to the JP80 - there's just no comparison. [...] ... but I have slowly had to admit to myself that I actually hate the JP80 - it is about the most frustrating and over-rates sounding synth I have ever come across, bar none. It feels good to say it! Its like a release (having paid a fortune for the thing its not easy to admit you've made a major mistake!)." -Kevin Nolan



Regarding those JP80 comments - they were made before they updated the filter models.

But in any case - there's no inconsistency. The JP80 supernatural synth, aliasing issue on PWM waves aside, does sound very good - however - the JD800 has a particular set of capabilities that do leave the JP80 standing - realtime control of an array of parameters, far more capable velocity and aftertouch options and a particular set of samples that allow for very broad and deep (omnisphere like) sound design). This does not mean that the JP80 is dreadful, it just means the JD800 is very special, and why I use seven of them in my facility.


Your prejudiced view on the Montage speaks for itself and is not worth debating
(comparing an 8-operator synth to a Tyros, and disregarding 10 years of digital filter advancements are just two of the plethora of superficialities of your argument not worth pursuing)



"Regarding those JP80 comments - they were made before they updated the filter models." -Kevin Nolan

You know exactly that this is not true! The JP-80 update left the original JP-80 Filter untouched and just added an additional Moog, Prophet and JP-8 type of Filter. This was not the reason for your change of mind. And the aliasing just gets really bad with the modeled PW waveform variation 1&2. The basic modeled PW waveform behaves much better in this regard. Yes, you are incostinent, which is normal human behavior, as we are talking about a highly irrational and subjective issue, like music and musical instruments.

And stop putting words in my mouth and stop accusing me of being prejudiced! As anyone can read, I've compared the sound of the Montage's AWM2 engine with the sound of the Tyros' AWM2 engine and I've compared the Montage's FM-X engine with the OASYS/Kronos' MOD-7 and with Yamaha's FS1R and SY99 FM engines, which concerning the programming options and available parameters are superior to the Montage's FM-X engine. And I don't have to give you further details, as you know those FM engines very well by experience.

So did you finally play a Montage and did you compare it with the mentioned instruments, as I did?



Or are you just further spreading your irrational smartass blabber?
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear God Sharp - please - lock this thread - it's turning into the gutter of korgforums!
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Dear God Sharp - please - lock this thread - it's turning into the gutter of korgforums!


You could just stop following the thread. Wink

Sharp.
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

difficult to do when you have people attacking you, rather than discussing the instrument!
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Tschury



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-saying-Dont-take-yourself-too-serious-mean
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Kevin Nolan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point Tschury, is that this Forum has a long and hard earned history of good natured, deep technical discussions.

You may be new here and from more hostile forums so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but - traditionally members here offer evidence with their technical discussions, not prejudiced rants; and usually don't attack the person but rather the argument (or the instrument).


It's a pity the moderator neglected to distinguish this excellent forum from the kinds of toxic forums you seemingly are used to in support of your stance.
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Tschury



Joined: 07 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
The point Tschury, is that this Forum has a long and hard earned history of good natured, deep technical discussions.

You may be new here and from more hostile forums so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but - traditionally members here offer evidence with their technical discussions, not prejudiced rants; and usually don't attack the person but rather the argument (or the instrument).


It's a pity the moderator neglected to distinguish this excellent forum from the kinds of toxic forums you seemingly are used to in support of your stance.


"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." - Matthew 7:5
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