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KRONOS Polyphony Problems
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tand
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you sold your Kronos, why are you so mad?

I had a Motif and thanks God I sold it. But Yamaha now is offering the new revolutionary Yamaha Montage.

In another post you said about latency in Kronos. Man, if you get a Motif you will see what really latency is. Motif, at least the XS, had an annoying latency, mainly when changing sounds and don't forget the horrible sound cut.

Currently, There is no option with better technology than Kronos . But if you need more a macbook will solve your problem.
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aron
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1534
Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos has enough polyphony. I layer a bunch of sounds all at once. This keyboard is freaking amazing. Now obviously there is a limit. But ALL keyboards have a limit and the Kronos is among the best at handling polyphony.

Don't get me started on the Nord. I've played them and they do not outclass the Kronos - not polyphony-wise for sure.

Like any other keyboard, there are limits to polyphony and you can check this with the CPU/Voice meter.

There is nothing like the Kronos on the market.
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tcornishmn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 193
Location: St. Paul, MN

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tand wrote:
If you sold your Kronos, why are you so mad?

I had a Motif and thanks God I sold it. But Yamaha now is offering the new revolutionary Yamaha Montage.

In another post you said about latency in Kronos. Man, if you get a Motif you will see what really latency is. Motif, at least the XS, had an annoying latency, mainly when changing sounds and don't forget the horrible sound cut.

Currently, There is no option with better technology than Kronos . But if you need more a macbook will solve your problem.
I'm pretty sure the person in question is trolling as he's a non-owner and his complaints are ridiculous, but since you mention it, I ran Mainstage on a 2012 Retina MBP with 16GB RAM and 768GB SSD with Ivory and Omnisphere. I had WAY more problems with that setup, and could run far less simultaneously on the Mainstage rig than I can on the Kronos. I've gone back to the Kronos for everything because it just works; unlike the softsynth kludge.
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tand
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tcornishmn wrote:
tand wrote:
If you sold your Kronos, why are you so mad?

I had a Motif and thanks God I sold it. But Yamaha now is offering the new revolutionary Yamaha Montage.

In another post you said about latency in Kronos. Man, if you get a Motif you will see what really latency is. Motif, at least the XS, had an annoying latency, mainly when changing sounds and don't forget the horrible sound cut.

Currently, There is no option with better technology than Kronos . But if you need more a macbook will solve your problem.
I'm pretty sure the person in question is trolling as he's a non-owner and his complaints are ridiculous, but since you mention it, I ran Mainstage on a 2012 Retina MBP with 16GB RAM and 768GB SSD with Ivory and Omnisphere. I had WAY more problems with that setup, and could run far less simultaneously on the Mainstage rig than I can on the Kronos. I've gone back to the Kronos for everything because it just works; unlike the softsynth kludge.


I belive you man. I work with VST since 2000. I really tried to use them live, but you have to carry more cables, more equipment. More things to worry about.

Kronos was the solution to me. With 9 syntheses and a huge sampler, anything I like I put inside Kronos and I'm ready to go. I sampled some old stuff from my Roland XP30. Nice to hear some old sounds again.

I never had polyphony problems with Kronos, but, of course, you have to know how to manage it. Everything has limits, even laptops.
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NormC
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Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NIO0850 wrote:
If Korg is King? Why do so many Real professionals play Nord Roland and Yamaha? Professional artists have all the money in the world and they dont own a Kronos. I think Korg has a way to go before they get it right. The Kronos pianos sound good but the sensitivity is all wrong and the pianos cut out and the pianos do not resonate properly together. Right now I like the Nord a lot better. It plays, feels and sounds like a real piano. Professionals play Nord.

Sounds like you are just anti Korg. My Kronos does not exhibit any of the piano problems you mention and I have yet to have a polyphony issue. MANY PROs use Kronos.
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NormC
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Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NIO0850 wrote:
I sold my Kronos 61 and do not regret it. I sold it for $2100 so Im happy about 2years of use with very little loss. Im ready for whats next. Have you ever seen inside of a Kronos? It looks like $500 of production cost. The stock SSD is very cheap thin and looks like a prototype of the first SSd ever created. Smile I mean if you are spending $3000 on a keyboard it should at least have the same quality screen of a $50 tablet. A Sony PS4 for $300 has 100x the processing power. Get my point of view? Its the year 2016 not 1999. We need a new flagship with current technology.


Im so happy I skipped the Oasys. I feel bad for those people.

You are clearly a troll. You joined a forum yesterday to come on and bash an instrument you don't like or even own. And to top it off you are wrong on most of your points. The SSD is an off the shelf standard device and has nothing to with Korg.
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NIO0850
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have bought owned and played many new Korgs for the last 30years. I am a die hard Korg fan and I am waiting to buy whats next. A silver painted Kronos is not it. I did not think I was bashing at all just stating my opinion. Seems like your a little offended dont be. Its just old technology and we all wish it was better.


NormC wrote:
NIO0850 wrote:
I sold my Kronos 61 and do not regret it. I sold it for $2100 so Im happy about 2years of use with very little loss. Im ready for whats next. Have you ever seen inside of a Kronos? It looks like $500 of production cost. The stock SSD is very cheap thin and looks like a prototype of the first SSd ever created. Smile I mean if you are spending $3000 on a keyboard it should at least have the same quality screen of a $50 tablet. A Sony PS4 for $300 has 100x the processing power. Get my point of view? Its the year 2016 not 1999. We need a new flagship with current technology.


Im so happy I skipped the Oasys. I feel bad for those people.

You are clearly a troll. You joined a forum yesterday to come on and bash an instrument you don't like or even own. And to top it off you are wrong on most of your points. The SSD is an off the shelf standard device and has nothing to with Korg.
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Rigel
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Joined: 02 Aug 2012
Posts: 244
Location: Izmir, Turkey

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NIO0850 wrote:
I sold my Kronos 61 and do not regret it. I sold it for $2100 so Im happy about 2years of use with very little loss. Im ready for whats next. Have you ever seen inside of a Kronos? It looks like $500 of production cost. The stock SSD is very cheap thin and looks like a prototype of the first SSd ever created. Smile I mean if you are spending $3000 on a keyboard it should at least have the same quality screen of a $50 tablet. A Sony PS4 for $300 has 100x the processing power. Get my point of view? Its the year 2016 not 1999. We need a new flagship with current technology.


Im so happy I skipped the Oasys. I feel bad for those people.


I am a medical doctor. I can give you many examples of medical devices that cost a fortune, but actually what they are made of are microcontrollers that cost a few bucks. What you buy is the science inside. An ultrasound machine is much simpler than a Kronos and cheaper to produce, but costs almost your house..!

I am very happy with my Kronos.

And, yes, I believe you're a troll.
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Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506.


Last edited by Rigel on Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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NIO0850
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos has a motherboard and cpu from a net book using very cheap internal computer parts.


Oh your a doctor from Turkey? Thumbs Up How pathetic your life must be taking $5.00 of your time for your professional opinion. Sounds like you guys are attacking me calling me a troll to set me off to break forum rules but its not going to work. Move along.
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Rigel
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Joined: 02 Aug 2012
Posts: 244
Location: Izmir, Turkey

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So make a synth using those cheap computer parts, and let us all see. By the way, do you have a problem with my occupation or my country?
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Korg KronosX73, Kurzweil PC3K6, Roland V-Synth GT, Kawai K5000S, Waldorf Blofeld, Novation Ultranova, Yamaha HS80M, Boss Micro BR80, Zoom H6, Sony PCM D100, Tascam DP32SD, Mackie 1202VLZ4, Zoom MS-70CDR, Rode NT1, Sony MDR 7506.
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NIO0850
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its called a Kronos and no but what does your occupation have to do with a guy having polyphony loss the exact reason I sold my Kronos.

You are the troll. Move along Lets stay on topic here.


Rigel wrote:
So make a synth using those cheap computer parts, and let us all see. By the way, do you have a problem with my occupation or my country?
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Mthembu59



Joined: 06 May 2015
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:57 am    Post subject: Qui robinez response....sounds gud Reply with quote

https://m.facebook.com/qui.robinez/posts/1071027242955189
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Mike Conway
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NIO0850 wrote:
Its the year 2016 not 1999. We need a new flagship with current technology.


Enjoy your new 2016 Yamaha Montage. Twisted Evil I believe the AWM2 (ROM sample playback) engine is 128 notes, which is still twelve short of the 5+ year old Kronos (sample playback engine). FMX is also 128, so Yamaha is stating 256 polyphony by adding that engine count (128 + 128). However, that may work for you, if you like the FM sounds.


NIO0850 wrote:
Im so happy I skipped the Oasys. I feel bad for those people.


You don't have to feel bad for me. The OASYS was the best hardware move I ever made and paid for itself, several times over. Many (except CX-3 and PolySix) of the OASYS engines have higher polyphony (HD-1 is 172 notes, compared to 140), it has an awesome interface (big tilt screen, rubber pads), more inputs and outputs, etc. Libraries aren't locked - I can play them on Kronos, as well. 11 years later, it still works great.

Of course, having a Kronos and an OASYS, is awesome for my personal polyphony and IFX counts, though I pretty much use the OASYS to play the Kronos' larger palette of sounds. Polyphony hasn't been much of an issue for me, as I usually share poly and effects loads with my Virus. I can do it all with just the Kronos, but like a lot of people, I have other gear.




Regarding polyphony, of course we wish there was more. Getting the most from the Kronos takes getting to know it and which engines use more/less poly. The MS-20 and STR-1 are only 40 note capable, because they use more processing power. That doesn't mean 40 notes, plus the piano. That's 40 notes, and nothing else, with many programs being dual layers (20 notes). Set a reserve limit, so they can't eat your piano playing.

As others may have also stated, the remedies are to use voice reserve settings (which can have different settings per part), when possible, use the one oscillator option in Track Parameters, watch the sustain pedal, turn off Unison, use higher poly engines - PolySix (180 notes), CX-3 (200), AL-1 (80), etc. With the HD-1, watch out for stereo samples and lots of cross-fades.

If I'm doing an orchestral mock up, I don't need stereo horns, as I'm trying to put a section or solo instrument in a particular part of the orchestra pit. The 4 trombone guys are sitting in the same area, be it left, right or middle. When every sample sound is in stereo, there is no separation. Go to the OSC/PITCH page and change the stereo sample to mono. When appropriate, do cross-switches, instead of cross-fades. The latter uses twice the poly. Cross-fading is why wavesequences use twice the poly, so be aware.

Swallow this... If you take a 1 layer set of cross-fading, stereo multisamples and change that to mono and cross-switched, you just took a 4 note per key program and made it 1 note per key. If you have a stereo, dual layer and cross-fading, two oscillator, program - you are sounding 16 notes on one key. A chord is 48 notes, so you might as well use the sustain pedal!! With the HD-1 sample engine, you can potentially play 140 notes, if it is one note per key. That's a lot of two fisted chord potential.

When programmers design a sound, they are trying to make an awesome, single program sound. It might not be appropriate in multiple layers with other such sounds.

Everything has limitations. They define the process, whether it is writing a script that happens in a single location, or whether you are composing a song with a finite amount of gear. Limitations are always fun for me, because I enjoy thinking out of the box, getting creative and exploring how to get the most out of an instrument.

Years ago, I scored some indie features with the SY99 (16 notes of sample playback + 16 notes of FM). That sounds like nothing, now. But, I planned most arrangements to get the most out of both engines, with a fairly equal number of FM and sample sounds.

Years later, when I did the same thing with the OASYS, it was a breeze! With a Kronos and a Virus TI, I feel like I can compose whatever I want.

While I very much appreciate the huge jumps in poly and number of effects, I notice that quite a few people seem unfamiliar with hardware trends. They can't help but compare to modern computer tech, which is of course the newest s**t. It is designed to last a couple of years, instead of 20 or 30 years. It's obsolescence vs endurance. Endurance means enough time to get to know your instrument and make it sing. Comparing hardware sequencers to computer programs, keyboard processors to computer processors, etc. is not a fair analogy.
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The funny part is that Kronos is the only synth being compared to top of the line PC technology. I see that as a compliment, it's already so far ahead of "competing" synths that it's not even being held up to the same standards. You don't see anyone complaining about the quality of the SSD in the Nords or Yamahas.

It's obvious the Kronos isn't a top of the line PC. For obvious reasons, synth tech will always be behind PC tech the same way a cell phone camera is always a few years behind the newest compact camera. I would also like to see a hardware update as well as various software updates but the Kronos already does way more than any synth I've ever had and definitely more than any of its competitors.
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NIO0850
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a troll.. Im waiting for the Kronos Successor. You can stick that Yamaha where the sun doesnt shine. Good thing it has a super knob.... lol

Mike Conway wrote:
NIO0850 wrote:
Its the year 2016 not 1999. We need a new flagship with current technology.


Enjoy your new 2016 Yamaha Montage. Twisted Evil I believe the AWM2 (ROM sample playback) engine is 128 notes, which is still twelve short of the 5+ year old Kronos (sample playback engine). FMX is also 128, so Yamaha is stating 256 polyphony by adding that engine count (128 + 128). However, that may work for you, if you like the FM sounds.


NIO0850 wrote:
Im so happy I skipped the Oasys. I feel bad for those people.


You don't have to feel bad for me. The OASYS was the best hardware move I ever made and paid for itself, several times over. Many (except CX-3 and PolySix) of the OASYS engines have higher polyphony (HD-1 is 172 notes, compared to 140), it has an awesome interface (big tilt screen, rubber pads), more inputs and outputs, etc. Libraries aren't locked - I can play them on Kronos, as well. 11 years later, it still works great.

Of course, having a Kronos and an OASYS, is awesome for my personal polyphony and IFX counts, though I pretty much use the OASYS to play the Kronos' larger palette of sounds. Polyphony hasn't been much of an issue for me, as I usually share poly and effects loads with my Virus. I can do it all with just the Kronos, but like a lot of people, I have other gear.




Regarding polyphony, of course we wish there was more. Getting the most from the Kronos takes getting to know it and which engines use more/less poly. The MS-20 and STR-1 are only 40 note capable, because they use more processing power. That doesn't mean 40 notes, plus the piano. That's 40 notes, and nothing else, with many programs being dual layers (20 notes). Set a reserve limit, so they can't eat your piano playing.

As others may have also stated, the remedies are to use voice reserve settings (which can have different settings per part), when possible, use the one oscillator option in Track Parameters, watch the sustain pedal, turn off Unison, use higher poly engines - PolySix (180 notes), CX-3 (200), AL-1 (80), etc. With the HD-1, watch out for stereo samples and lots of cross-fades.

If I'm doing an orchestral mock up, I don't need stereo horns, as I'm trying to put a section or solo instrument in a particular part of the orchestra pit. The 4 trombone guys are sitting in the same area, be it left, right or middle. When every sample sound is in stereo, there is no separation. Go to the OSC/PITCH page and change the stereo sample to mono. When appropriate, do cross-switches, instead of cross-fades. The latter uses twice the poly. Cross-fading is why wavesequences use twice the poly, so be aware.

Swallow this... If you take a 1 layer set of cross-fading, stereo multisamples and change that to mono and cross-switched, you just took a 4 note per key program and made it 1 note per key. If you have a stereo, dual layer and cross-fading, two oscillator, program - you are sounding 16 notes on one key. A chord is 48 notes, so you might as well use the sustain pedal!! With the HD-1 sample engine, you can potentially play 140 notes, if it is one note per key. That's a lot of two fisted chord potential.

When programmers design a sound, they are trying to make an awesome, single program sound. It might not be appropriate in multiple layers with other such sounds.

Everything has limitations. They define the process, whether it is writing a script that happens in a single location, or whether you are composing a song with a finite amount of gear. Limitations are always fun for me, because I enjoy thinking out of the box, getting creative and exploring how to get the most out of an instrument.

Years ago, I scored some indie features with the SY99 (16 notes of sample playback + 16 notes of FM). That sounds like nothing, now. But, I planned most arrangements to get the most out of both engines, with a fairly equal number of FM and sample sounds.

Years later, when I did the same thing with the OASYS, it was a breeze! With a Kronos and a Virus TI, I feel like I can compose whatever I want.

While I very much appreciate the huge jumps in poly and number of effects, I notice that quite a few people seem unfamiliar with hardware trends. They can't help but compare to modern computer tech, which is of course the newest s**t. It is designed to last a couple of years, instead of 20 or 30 years. It's obsolescence vs endurance. Endurance means enough time to get to know your instrument and make it sing. Comparing hardware sequencers to computer programs, keyboard processors to computer processors, etc. is not a fair analogy.
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