 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
burningbusch
Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
|
 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
The Herbie/EVP88 talk was from SOS July 2002. At that time Gigasampler was new and there were very few Rhodes libraries available. I sold one during that time frame which had four velocity layers, and it was junk in comparison to what you find today. My earliest receipt of the Scarbee Rhodes goes back to 2003. Kontakt came out in 2002. So yes, in the early 2000s, the modeled EVP88 was a major step ahead in terms of the playability vs. the primitive hardware and software Rhodes pianos. But sampled products (as have other modeled Rhodes: GSi, LL, Velvet) have come a LONG way since, and I like most others I feel, have mercifully placed the EVP88 Rhodes our the rearview mirror.
Suffice to say, opinions differ.
Busch.
_________________
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Accept the original date you refer to though I didn't read that article and read another (perhaps reprint) some time later.
However, as said, I'll go by the thoughts of Miles Davis's FenderRhodes player regarding his judgment on it and pass on your surmising on those anonymous others who have replaced a modelled instrument with samples. I remind you the Yamaha VL1 was released in 1994 - 8 years before the time of a model you so readily dismiss; so your date references are to me superfluous to any point of quality. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kevin, sorry to say it, but your view concerning EVP is nothing short of bizarre.
I don't know of ANY first class keyboarder, who seriously uses an EVP 88 as Rhodes nowadays, neither live nor for recording Rhodes sounds! This thing is as outdated as can be, and there are many better and more authentic sampled software Rhodes packages out there meanwhile.
The ONLY reason Herbie Hancock praised it many years ago, was the joy we all shared: to find a better software result at that time (!!!), than the rare, tiny, ugly sounding, miserably unauthentic, looped, 2-4 velocity sampled software sets back then. It was (not: is) one of the better efforts, the first with a Rhodes-like sustain, and everyboday raved about it in 2001: not more and not less. And it instantly was complete history from the very moment when the Scarbee libraries for Rhodes (and then Wurly and Clav) appeared. Nobody ever looked back, as far as I know including Herbie Hancock. Have you ever seen or heard Herbie with an EVP 88 in the last years? I heavn't either. So no, nobody gets back to it. Well, nearly nobody. 
You seem to miss the historical context just as much as any practical acquaintance with the real thing. Your point of view can't even be seriously discussed IMO.
Scarbee's, Busch's, some others' and now again and even more, Eric Persing's Rhodes packages sound like the real thing. The EVP88 only reminds of it in some nice outdated way.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
jimknopf - it's irrelevant when Herbie Hancock praised it. Virtual Acoustic Modelling was nailed by the early 1990s. You've got this superficial view that because 2002 is 14 years ago, that modelling was poor. As a VL1 owner - I can assure you modelling was wholly mature by 2002.
I find it utterly preposterous that you feel qualified to question Herbie Hancock's judgment. Either the model was good or bad - it doens't get worse with age, and your and burningbusch's position is, honestly, arrogant in the extreme.
Do you honestly think I 'm going to read a post by you, and decide on that basis to see your point as correct - because you know how Herbie Hancock heard that modelled piano - made a judgement on the basis that it's the best of a bad lot, was naive about it, and then used it on tour, while he had access to actual Fender Rhodes pianos, and knew the sound from the early 1960's when he played it for Miles Davis? Really? - You really think that's how Herbie Hancock engaged Logic's modelled piano back then? Do you honestly think Herbie Hancock's 'ear' was that bad in 2002?
Just what are you taking??? I have never, ever come across such outrageous self delusion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kevin, you obviously avoid answering the basic question:
Do you know of any first class keyboarders seriously using an EVP88 in the last years any more? Or have you at least seen Herbie Hancock sticking to it?
If not, and if they all use alternatives meanwhile, which reason do you guess for the EVP 88 falling into complete oblivion?
It's too good to be played??? 
I can't help you getting a clue.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ksynth
Platinum Member
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1225
Location: Northern California, USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Who cares what Herbie thinks, sheesh. I sure don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EvilDragon wrote: | | Who cares what Herbie thinks, sheesh. I sure don't. |
blasphemy 
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kevin Nolan wrote: | jimknopf - it's irrelevant when Herbie Hancock praised it. Virtual Acoustic Modelling was nailed by the early 1990s. You've got this superficial view that because 2002 is 14 years ago, that modelling was poor. As a VL1 owner - I can assure you modelling was wholly mature by 2002.
I find it utterly preposterous that you feel qualified to question Herbie Hancock's judgment. Either the model was good or bad - it doens't get worse with age, and your and burningbusch's position is, honestly, arrogant in the extreme.
Do you honestly think I 'm going to read a post by you, and decide on that basis to see your point as correct - because you know how Herbie Hancock heard that modelled piano - made a judgement on the basis that it's the best of a bad lot, was naive about it, and then used it on tour, while he had access to actual Fender Rhodes pianos, and knew the sound from the early 1960's when he played it for Miles Davis? Really? - You really think that's how Herbie Hancock engaged Logic's modelled piano back then? Do you honestly think Herbie Hancock's 'ear' was that bad in 2002?
Just what are you taking??? I have never, ever come across such outrageous self delusion. |
Software (and by inference models built in software) has no "wear out mechanism". So they won't degrade over time (not in a way an electronic/mechanical synth might without servicing), but it will be a snapshot of what technology could do at the time.
That doesn't make it a bad snapshot today. I agree with Kevin that Yamaha's VL (and AN) modelling of the time of the VL1, AN1x and EX5 is pretty top notch and little I have heard since has surpassed it. I haven't knowingly heard an EVP88, so will pass no comment on that. So a good model in 2002 is still a good model, but it might be surpassed by later ones where more computing resources can be thrown at them where more nuances can be modelled - and that opinion (what is better or worse) will always be subjective depending on our tastes and preferences (How else do you explain the fact that some people ACTUALLY like Coldplay )
_________________
Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Instead of discussing this any further I have ordered Keyscape today.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
amit
Approved Merchant
Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 825
Location: New Delhi, India
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Software (and by inference models built in software) has no "wear out mechanism". So they won't degrade over time (not in a way an electronic/mechanical synth might without servicing), but it will be a snapshot of what technology could do at the time. |
I'd say that this is about 90% true.
While Software by it's nature does not degrade, something quite opposite does happen. The Technical evolution of the Host (computers) and depending on the Virtual Model it can have a significant impact on the perceived sound.
For example an engine then hard coded for a given sample-rate (say 44.1 k) can sound quite different at 96k. (co-efficient derivation/Xfer Functions/interpolation etc).
Used to happen quite a bit with old plugins. It all depends on the computational model itself.
Also note that what we call as models (mainly off their hardware counter parts, or VA Circuit) are actually NOT the true representations of the circuit simulation. A True Simulation Model (on a decent sophistication level) still cannot be realized for a musician (with acceptable real-time response/latency).There are mathematical reductions / and approximations put in place to simplify the model for real-time performance (efficiency/FFT it's a huge topic in itself and a lot of research papers and books can be found on it), these along with other factors such as rounding off and other float/integer operations etc, can at times make a difference depending on underlying architecture.
I am again emphasizing that this is dependent on the model/design and may or may not apply to a given product.
in a Nutshell, Unless a model is observed under the same environment as it was designed for (like a physical hardware v/a), both side of arguments can be true. i.e. for one case, it can be as good a representation it ever was/could be and other case that it just does not cut it (provided, both assuming that they are listening to the same, when they might not be.)
Having said that, and getting back to topic,
Has anyone else noted that most of the players in the video/ demo etc seem to be using the same midi controller : A Roland A-88 ??
_________________
DX7-MOD-7 Patches | Korg Related Content
iPad Pro 12.9,MBP
Korg (Kronos 2, PA600,WavestateVolcaFM), Moog Subsequent 37, Waldorf Pulse 2, ,Novation (Peak, Circuit), Roland GR55, Roli Rise 49, Boog Model D Novation Sl 49, Launchpad Pro, Ableton Push 2 + Suite,Yamaha DTX Multi 12, Akai EWI USB, Nano key Studio, Arturia(BeatStep Pro,DrumBrute,Keystep),StryMon(Big Sky,Timeline), Mooer Ocean Machine, Zoom MS-70CDR,MXR Carbon Copy Deluxe, MicroKontrol,KLC, Korg DS-1H, Korg EXP-2,Roland DP-10, Nanopad 2, TEcontrol BBC2, Soundcraft Signatrure 22 MTK, Yamaha MG10XU,UltraG DI,Eris E5 .. List |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jimknopf wrote: | Instead of discussing this any further I have ordered Keyscape today.
|
I have ordered the EVP88 . I am interested in that retro 2002 software piano sound. It will be a huge improvement.
Since I need to let go of the Jv880 AP sound
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Congrats, Greg!
It will change your life. 
@Amit
The Roland A88 just happens to be Eric Persings controller of choice in his studio.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
Last edited by jimknopf on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just to get an impression how the Keyscape Wurly sounds live (look especially from 3:50 on):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKsGGUbm7sk
They sure know how to have a good time. 
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
