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Korg - wrecking keyboard performance?
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You for acknowledging it's industry wide. I do wonder though if the Internet was around when Korg went from organs to synths if a similar discussion would have occurred.

It is what the people are asking for though, to look at what is constantly sold out each month at the instrument stores is testament to the public wanting little boxes that offer instant gratification with no practise required. The things "real" musicians play sit there for quite awhile. I saw a $3K sax going for $999 in a store window this morning along side a bunch of $200 ukuleles. "Real" musicians across the board are suffering from a trend driven industry. Doesn't help that companies are being bought up by conglomerates who want to see "results".

I was recently working with a fellow who had come from one of the chain-store instrument shops here. He said his reason for leaving was he was sick of spending his days selling crappy acoustic guitars with high action and Casio lighting keyboards to parents of teenagers while praying for 5:30pm to arrive. Beginners fund so many instrument stores, especially Mum and Dad stores, as there is a never ending source of kids wanting to go to bandcamp or be a rockstar.
And more and more these days, a DJ. The store I started buying from in highschool specialised then in student needs and still does today. They have diversified into music tech also now, but every time I'm in there one of their staff is selling a crappy learner guitar or a student clarinet to a family (like the entire family are in the store). Dare say that they do a good trade in beginner's DJ setups too. I know the big hifi chain here does. Music is changing and with it what sort of musician the kids want to be when they grow up.

As far as me being a fanboi, if anything I put my hand up to that label regarding Waldorf. I have a rather large softspot for Korg being as they are the maker of my first two synths, but the truth be known, I originally on the side of "oh no, Korg are making the toys now" when the first Volcas were released. After friend with a respectable orchestral saxophonist portfolio bought the set and I got to have play, I changed my mind. A great successor line to the Electribes I felt. Sure they won't improve any players skills at keys, but they will improve their composition skills. I've always been a better trombonist than a keyboardist anyway and would rather a ribbon and a mod wheel to a keyboard with aftertouch.

.........

Wow, I just looked up Roland pianos. I always thought those baby grands in the store in town with Roland's name on them were real. That part of the store scares me. I always feel like I'm not supposed to be in there so I look from afar.
Regarding Kurzweil, I've always been surprised they survived Ray and Stevie losing interest in them. But they were consumed by another bigger company so I guess that helped them and explains the rather average quality of that fx unit of theirs I own (the Peavey ProFxII I accidentally swapped for a Vesta Kozo delay when I was drunk leaves it for dead).
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole discussion is based on a number of assumptions.

Is The Swan of Tuonela a great piece?

Arguably, yes. For the sake of argument, let's say yes.

Is it still a great piece when performed?

Sure.

Is it a great piece when recorded?

Presumably.

Does it have to be recorded from a performance to still be great?

The ULTIMATE MUSICIAN MORTAL KANTATA crowd would apparently say so. To them the final death, screaming in a pool of napalm and minikeys, of the Musician as Live Performer, is the last trump of the musical apocalypse, a tragedy in human history barely equalled by the worst excesses of war. The fact that keys have always had different sizes, especially when looking at harpsichords, spinets and pipe organs (let alone accordions) is somehow lost in the shuffle.

The poor producers stuck in their basements with their ballcaps on backwards and their MPC posters don't count because they're not Real Musicians. Whatever music they produce is inherently debased because they don't perform it live, despite the fact that they're essentially composers, composing and conducting and arranging an automated orchestra. The fact that some of them come up with incredibly detailed and complex works doesn't matter; they're not Real Musicians and that's all there is to it. You can tell from the size of their keys and the fact that they're pushing buttons to render their arrangements live.

Should we call them Notemonkeys, to keep them properly in their production ghetto?

You could import a MIDI of a Bach fugue onto a KORG Krome, if you wanted to, and then meticulously add interpretation to it; expression, rubato, you name it. Does that make Bach's music lousy? Does it make the interpretation lousy, even if it ends up being numerically identical to a version played live by Jordan Rudess?

Go ahead; you can do five finger exercises on any piece of roundly criticised musical technology. Even, if you're so minded, some of Casio's keyboards. Or even KORG's Gadget software.

However, if you're open, even for a moment, to the idea that just maybe production of music is a worthy endeavour, and that it doesn't have to be Ronald Smith interpreting it, then all these so-called toys have their place. And if you're open for an equal moment to the notion that economic realities dictate that utterly superlative actions raise the expense of everything to which they're attached, you should clearly see that the small pieces of producer equipment would be totally unjustifiable in the market if wedded to an eternal series of heirloom quality keyboard interfaces - and unjustifiably so for the cause of the producers.

It's rather like arguing that the rise of the manufacturing plant means the death of artisanship when in actual fact the availability of really high quality tools is excellent - it's just a niche market. And it's quite possible for a dedicated artisan to hand-turn flywheels on a watchmaker's lathe to repair a vintage Rolex even while Seiko turns out digital stopwatches by the crate.

The worst of it is that the loudest complainers are the most loudly willing to make it everyone else's problem.

Not: "Oh, gee, a company brought out something in which I have no interest so I won't buy it."

But: "A company brought out something in which I have no interest so obviously it's the MUSICOPOCALYPSE! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!"

And every single problem that has been brought up has a solution, with the sole exception that there isn't a superlative, all-in-one box that does all the things at once. God forbid anybody should have to try to survive the ineluctable trauma of using a master keyboard. I don't know how the brave souls that do this manage to live with themselves ... oh, no, wait. I do. I'm one of them. I swallow my tears, drink heavily and try not to look myself in the eyes in the mirror in the morning.

Sorry, got that wrong. I solve a problem of needing to distribute control signals, and then I give myself a mental high-five for actually solving a problem. Go me! No therapy nor psychoactive drugs required.

Now, let's consider the rest of this thread. A saxophone that wasn't selling, is now discounted. This isn't taken as a representation of retail reality, but a problem for Real Musicians. Parents buy affordable devices for their children - and this is somehow a problem. Kids in bands don't want to learn to play, they just want to press buttons. How they know what those buttons do, and whether or not they are musically viable is apparently just something taken for granted, rather than, for example, the product of weeks of work in their bedroom, preparing their basslines or stings. Oh, wait, they're not trying to be Real Musicians, but Notemonkeys. My mistake.

Well, let's not fight about it. I have a solution for this whole thing. A new, worldwide, musicians' licensing deal. Want to be involved in music? Here's how it works. You ( or your parents or guardians) put up a bond to the value of $10,000, and immediately also purchase a full size, standards-compliant musical instrument. Too big for your little childish hands? Too bad. Sucks to be you.

Now, perform at least twenty hours of practice every week. Fail? Lose your bond, and you're forced to sell the instrument on the second-hand market. After six years of study you shall be examined by a board, on both theory and practice. Fail? Lose your bond, and be forced to sell your instrument on the second-hand market.

Only if you pass may you be permitted to be a musician.

Oh, and musical software? Strictly prohibited without a musician's licence!

That should end this argument. After that, we can tackle Middle East Peace.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL that was a great read. Sorta noticed though you are taking everything as an attack on your point of view, even when it's supporting it.

Last live performance I was paid for was playing country and western covers in a country town pub using a drum machine. Publican booted us after two of the three sets we were booked for. "When I booked you, I was expecting three musicians, I only see two...". Nobody who walked into the room walked out again, including the hen's night that showed up and they all bought drinks, so I dunno what his problem was. Still earned more money for that show than I ever did playing originals. Meh, there will always be the holier than thou's.

As Regurgitator said, Music Is Sport.....
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo many misconceptions there it's hard to know where to start...

Yes, keyboard instruments had different size keys, until they were standardized. Same as cars had different pedal arrangements, until they were standardized. Imagine getting in a car today, and the pedals were rearranged, then getting in another car and the pedals are yet different again: care to drive on a highway at high speeds not knowing exactly where the brake is?

Why are the pad pushers NOT musicians? Quite sime: no ability to PLAY keyboards. They might be able to make great music, but they can't play a keyboard for s**t. Take one of your MPC, reversed-hat "keyboard players," and ask them to go up to the piano and play the intro from Yes' "Awaken." I'll make it easier: Mozart's Sonata in C? Give them the sheet music to help them. Still no? Ask them to play Springsteen's "Glory Days." No?

Hard to call oneself a "musicians" when one can't play music.

And yes, one ISN'T a "musician" unless one can play in front of others, and can play something besides their own bleeps and bloops to a pre-programmed backing track. Karaoke AIN'T keyboard playing. Only knowing your own stuff AIN'T keyboard playing. It's also NOT being a musician, and more than riding a bike makes you capable of driving a car at 90 MPH.

Now, based on your premise, you have NO issue with someone sitting and recording something, then charging you umpteen dollars for them go on stage and lip-sync everything right? No need to sing, just like no need to play, because they did it once in the studio.

Ad to someone not having interest in something so they believe it's no good, that's pure bullshit. Take a 4-octave keyboard for example: when it's too short to play the opening run from ELP's "Pirates," Then it can't be used, hence: useless. Play the Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue by Bach on mini-keys. Rather, try, because you'll never be able to do it.

Finally, excellent actions DON'T raise the price by very much. The difference in Fatar's crappy to excellent actions is around $150.00. If you can't afford that little bit extra, then wait a bit till you get the money. Because having aftertouch makes you a BETTER musician, when you can add expression and dynamism to your playing.

Can these people make millions in the entertainment world? Sure: people are suckers and will pay lots of money for anything. Does anyone thing Justin Beiber is a "musician?" An excellent singer? Hell, eve a talented one?

because extending your posit out logically, you would have to think him an excellent performer and musician simply based on the popularity he has.

..Joe

PS: Oh, yeah- the main reason I hate these P.O.S. keyboard is because the makers have always put better ones on in the past. Even Casio, which you chose to slag as crap. Look at the CZ-1, the VZ-1 or the FZ-1. All were professional-level keyboards, 2 using very interesting synthesis methods, one, the most advanced sampler of its day. ALL had superb keyboards on them. Makers CAN put good keyboards on synths. They CHOOSE not to.
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Joe. Point taken.

There are musicians.

Then there are notemonkeys.

When do the musicians start the notemonkey annihilation programme? Tonight? Tomorrow? Does it matter?

Let's take a more current example; deadmau5. He can hardly play a note, and cheerfully admits it. It's not a secret. What percentage of his audience gives a damn? He's a notemonkey par excellence, and he produces music that has massive appeal, and presents it in shows that people will line up to attend.

He puts on a show.

He puts on a show with lights, and fog, and strobes, and costuming and pyrotechnics and all the trimmings and then does some minor live arrangement and mixing to keep the show going, based on his stems.

The ultimate notemonkey. What use does he have for a carefully set up stratocaster? None. What use does he have for musical widgets in his studio? Lots and lots - regardless of the presence of keyboards.

He doesn't play music. He hits PLAY, but he doesn't perform it live. I am unaware of anyone sobbing themselves to sleep over that fact. So this immediately raises the question of: who the hell cares?

And just in case nobody cares that deadmau5 couldn't slap his fingers on the keys and come out with a particular chord, why should the manufacturers not supply him and folks like him with hardware and software that meets their needs? Are you also going to whine about the Mazda Miata just because it won't carry a family of seven individuals to a football game? Or a motorcycle? "How dare ... I say how DARE they create a vehicle without pedals in the ... what is this, a GEARSHIFT under the LEFT FOOT??? ARISE, my four-wheeled brethren!!!"

All this tells me is that there is a huge gap in the market for people who will either aftermarket fit a device like a Kronos with a superlative action (it's cheap, right?) or create new devices that are only for the elite creme de la creme.

Go ahead, if you care that much. Make it. Do it. Get rich. I honestly, sincerely cheer you on your way. But if you genuinely believe that anybody except a tiny niche in your audience really cares about physical keyboard gymnastics, or string tickling, or anything like that, then you're just way off base. The numbers are public knowledge; people want to see a show even if there isn't an instrument in sight. The willingness of the manufacturers to work with notemonkeys is economics, not a diabolical anti-musician plot.
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Spheric El
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah we don't need to be upset by what is released by a company,move on.
Theres enough choice for me certainly.
Justin Beiber - leave him alone ;o)

Remember that campaign to keep music live. Music keeps changing - its ok.
Sgt Peppers - 4 synced 4 tracks. State of the art.

Kingston Jamaica mid 50s - paying a stage full of musicians in the dancehall to expensive in curry goat. Get a turntable and soundsystem above the alcohol shop and play records ,single handedly inventing an intire dj culture that has spawned countless excellent music forms. Dub raggae alone is a tech reliant music form in which the world would be a duller place with out. Cool dj Herc was Jamaican.

It's ok chill. Do we not have enough musical instruments? I'm sorry if you have a problem in this age for that. I find Korg an innovative company out if the majors.
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Spheric El
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I really read that we are not musicians if we don't play keyboards?
That's a bit like graffiti isn't art or breaking isn't dance. (Highly respected ,skilled and paid forms).

You can make music with a lithophone.
My friends make the most amazing music with bin lids ,pipes and recycled rubbish.
Good music will never die.
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Spheric El
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I woke up yesterday with a hang over from a ukulele real ale fest the day before.
Had a rant on this thread. I had been trying my best to keep out the arguement up until then :/ oh well.

I guess my main feeling is we have beliefs and needs but to remember that other people's are just as important. Try not to wind ourselves up over others (and their music forms) beliefs.
But by falling into the arguement I'm forgetting exactly this haha.
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not everybody is gifted to be a virtuoso (or who have time to put in the practice required to do so). I am, I think, a reasonably average keyboard player and a very mediocre guitar player, but that does not stop me making (what I think is) good music.

There is a place for everybody in the spectrum of ability. I am in awe of players like Wakeman, Emmerson, Howe, Squire, Hackett, Banks, Rutherford, Lifeson Lee, Peart etc (just to cover a few instruments!). I will never have their playing chops, but that doesn't mean that music made by somebody with much less skill is invalid. If people enjoy it then that is what counts. In that I include the pleasure I have in making the music, as my main hobby that gets me away from the pressures of work.

TBH, I am not sure about the overall keyboard issue. I have the Kronos 61 and Montage 7 and they have really nice keybeds (with aftertouch) that suit my playing style (have grown up on Yamaha Semi-weighted keybeds). Some of the great keyboards of the 70s allegedly had terrible action, but people worked with them, and still made good music.
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek:
Absolutely not. Take Nick Rhodes- no one will ever call him a virtuoso, but the man can play.

There is indeed a place for everyone. My point, is don't say you're a keyboard musician if you can't play keyboards. I don't care how much money someone has made; hell Milli Vanilli made MILLIONS without ever performing a note: were they "musicians?"

Michael Jackson owned 2 fully-blown Synclaviers. Cost: about 1 million dollars US. Anyone on the planet think he was a keyboard musician?

..Joe
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, fair points, so long as somebody playing keyboards even with limited skill is a keyboard player Smile

I guess if somebody was bought up on the VCS3 as an synth effects machine (i.e. no keyboard attached) then they can claim to be a synth player, not a keyboard player?

Agree with Nick Rhodes - an integral part of the Duran sound. The funny thing that really turned me on to their music that caused me to look past their image (I was very anti image in those days) was "Rio" and John Taylor's bass playing on it. I then went back and listened to what had come before and realised how narrow minded I had been.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow....I wasn't a musician when I was performing on a trombone in a stage band. I was only a musician once I learnt keys. I knew I should have stopped looking at this thread.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man. So much hatred. I don't need labels, just make music! A few posts back Joe said the "pad pushers" might be able to make great music but refuses to call them musicians. That boggles my mind. It may not be my music or my way of making music but if they make music they're musicians. Also, musical theory is overrated. Historically it has always come AFTER the fact, meaning great music was produced and people started to write down what made the music so great. Let your ears be the judge instead. FWIW I just saw Flume at a festival and I thought it was extremely boring, but he had thirty thousand people in front of him jumping to his every beat. I also saw The XX and the "pad pusher" guy they used was a virtuoso using about 12 different "toys" to crank out a 90 percent live played performance.

Point being (I did have one), just appreciate that everyone has different workflows and music can be wonderful or terrible however it's made.
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Joe Gerardi
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

megamarkd wrote:
Wow....I wasn't a musician when I was performing on a trombone in a stage band. I was only a musician once I learnt keys. I knew I should have stopped looking at this thread.


Hey, STUPID: I wrote KEYBOARD musician.

And you weren't.

Is it because you're in Oz? Do the letters appear upside down to you?

..Joe
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh snap! You got me with your amazing intellect. I'd never have thought to resort to insults when I was losing an argument.

edit

I should have quoted the post you made that made out that only keys players are musicians. You only said KEYBOARD musician in a later post.
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