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Korg Arp fx pedal question/Reverb or Delay
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Bassface78



Joined: 18 Nov 2013
Posts: 25
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Korg Arp fx pedal question/Reverb or Delay Reply with quote

I want to buy an fx pedal for my Arp. an analog delay or analog reverb. I can only afford one. What would you pick? Smile
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Current instruments: Fender Blacktop Bass 4-string, Arp Odyssey, Latin Percussion Matador Bongs, Doumbek, Hohner harmonica, Digitech bp-80 bass multi effects pedal, dunlop mxr carbon copy delay, SQ-1 Sequencer Korg, Fender Rumble 40 Bass Combo Amp-Also Had a Korg mini MS-20.

Previously owned several other Fender Jazz Basses, Ibanez bass, Peavey bass, unbranded headless bass, old school Yamaha drum machines 1980's. Casio SK-1 was my first synth circa 1985. Also had a Fender USA Strat 1986.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why have one or the other when it is possible to have both - the Behringer DR400 can be had for a reasonable price.

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Bassface78



Joined: 18 Nov 2013
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Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is the behringer analog or digital?
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Current instruments: Fender Blacktop Bass 4-string, Arp Odyssey, Latin Percussion Matador Bongs, Doumbek, Hohner harmonica, Digitech bp-80 bass multi effects pedal, dunlop mxr carbon copy delay, SQ-1 Sequencer Korg, Fender Rumble 40 Bass Combo Amp-Also Had a Korg mini MS-20.

Previously owned several other Fender Jazz Basses, Ibanez bass, Peavey bass, unbranded headless bass, old school Yamaha drum machines 1980's. Casio SK-1 was my first synth circa 1985. Also had a Fender USA Strat 1986.
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voip
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's digital, 24-bit signal path, stereo out (mono in) with a versatile range of delay times and reverb types.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZXX7xCDAmY

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Hooked On Sonics
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Joined: 06 May 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/algorithms/index?field_effects_value=All&field_product_algo_nid=All&field_bundle_value=2
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Bassface78



Joined: 18 Nov 2013
Posts: 25
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard that digital pedals spoil the sound of the analog keyboard. I'm guessing that is not always the case?
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Current instruments: Fender Blacktop Bass 4-string, Arp Odyssey, Latin Percussion Matador Bongs, Doumbek, Hohner harmonica, Digitech bp-80 bass multi effects pedal, dunlop mxr carbon copy delay, SQ-1 Sequencer Korg, Fender Rumble 40 Bass Combo Amp-Also Had a Korg mini MS-20.

Previously owned several other Fender Jazz Basses, Ibanez bass, Peavey bass, unbranded headless bass, old school Yamaha drum machines 1980's. Casio SK-1 was my first synth circa 1985. Also had a Fender USA Strat 1986.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

24 bit digitisation is pretty good in terms of being able to capture instantaneous signal values. The sampling rate is not given by Behringer, but is likely to be 44kHz or 48kHz. The so-called analogue pedals use bucket brigade delay lines which store charge, corresponding to the signal amplitude at the time of the sample, and pass it along from one tiny capacitor to another on a chip. BBDs still require a sample rate, usually variable to vary the delay time, and therefore subject to the Nyquist Shannon sampling limit. The number of electrons in each bucket, together with other factors, limit the dynamic range to around 65dB, whilst 24-bit sampling allows up to 144dB of dynamic range.

CD quality is 16-bit, offering around 96dB dynamic range, with some enhancements possible by refinements such as overampling.

"Proper" analogue reverb and delays, such as spring lines and magnetic tape-based devices have limitations too, such as bulk, susceptibility to vibration and interference, and reliability.

Hereby a can of worms is opened.....

Anyway, for the price, the Behringer DR400 is a steal.

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Bassface78



Joined: 18 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool man, thanks for the detailed response. I'll try to find one of the behringer pedals and give it a shot! Appreciate your help!
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Current instruments: Fender Blacktop Bass 4-string, Arp Odyssey, Latin Percussion Matador Bongs, Doumbek, Hohner harmonica, Digitech bp-80 bass multi effects pedal, dunlop mxr carbon copy delay, SQ-1 Sequencer Korg, Fender Rumble 40 Bass Combo Amp-Also Had a Korg mini MS-20.

Previously owned several other Fender Jazz Basses, Ibanez bass, Peavey bass, unbranded headless bass, old school Yamaha drum machines 1980's. Casio SK-1 was my first synth circa 1985. Also had a Fender USA Strat 1986.
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John01W
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Joined: 13 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the dry path remains analog you'll be fine...that's what you want/what is most important.

Analog delays which I love for what they are are limited...and analog reverb even more so....spring reverb for synths=YUK IMO.....

I suggest you get digital with an analog dry signal that doesn't get converted....Don't throw your money away on Behringer.

If you're spending money to get a nice analog synth don't butcher it by getting a cheap pos pedal.

For me, the good choices are strymon blue sky, Dig for delays or the BEST two(if you're not going rack) are: Strymon BIG SKY or Eventide Space if you can run it 100% wet and get your dry sound preserved in your mixer.


This is what I'm talkin' about baby:




Save up spend the coin on a keeper and get better results in the process.
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voip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Strymon Big Sky is over 10 times the cost of the Behringer. Whilst it is more versatile, and is stereo in and stereo out, the Behringer is mono in and stereo out, which suits the Arp quite well, since that has mono audio output. The conversion from mono to stereo output can make a big difference to the sound, since the Behringer intoduces slightly different amounts of phase change and delay to each of the two output channels, widening the sound stage considerably.

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John01W
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
The Strymon Big Sky is over 10 times the cost of the Behringer. Whilst it is more versatile, and is stereo in and stereo out, the Behringer is mono in and stereo out, which suits the Arp quite well, since that has mono audio output. The conversion from mono to stereo output can make a big difference to the sound, since the Behringer intoduces slightly different amounts of phase change and delay to each of the two output channels, widening the sound stage considerably.

.

Ya damn right(in regards to cost)...you get what you pay for.....and I highly doubt that the behringer has enough input headroom needed for synths like the big sky/space does either which introduces a whole lot of problems....and it's not just that....they are LEAGUES ahead in just about every way.....sound quality/build quality(the behringer is PLASTIC!), the programability, the number of algorithms and sheer flexibility....sorry man, but the behringer is shyte. Getting an awesome synth like the Arp and running it through a 40 dollar turd is a crying shame.

Apologies, but what you're saying about the mono in stereo out thing is just bs when comparing the behringer to the strymon or the tide....we could get into it about that but frankly I'm kinda amused at your logic on that one....they are BOTH designed for either stereo in and out or mono in stereo out....they're made to do both....to suggest behringer has some "secret sauce" about that compared to the strymon/tide is laughable at best.

Buying that behringer is throwing your money away, just my opinion....it's disposable.

Worrying about how a digital delay will effect the "analogness" of your synth then not wanting to spend more than 40 bucks on a pedal.....that's just funny right there Laughing Original poster, be sure to read my first reply.

Cheaper options which are really good IMO are the Strymon DIG which definitely has a flavor/character that very much suits analog synths, it can be set to delays or something that sounds like reverbs and delays(and it has modulation settings too):



The DIG is special....I still want one even though I have eventides and lexicons lol:

http://www.strymon.net/dig-digital-delay-technology-white-paper/
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Hooked On Sonics
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjjbDme96s
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John01W
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooked On Sonics wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjjbDme96s
Another good choice, though missing a lot of the knobs/real time control/better interface of the factor line that appeals to synth players....the bonus is you get to choose your algorithms which is nice(but they are expensive at 20 bucks a piece)! Again, very nice choice....you cannot go wrong with Eventide!

If you're going H9 series, be mindful.....the core only comes with 1 or 2 algorithms so though it may seem like a bargain, at 20 bucks a pop for algos you end up spending more money.
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voip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"that but frankly I'm kinda amused at your logic on that one....they are BOTH designed for either stereo in and out or mono in stereo out....they're made to do both....to suggest behringer has some "secret sauce" about that compared to the strymon/tide is laughable at best. "

Did I really say or imply that?

And Behringer are rubbish? DeepMind12?

Here's that cheap t*rd of a pedal with a synth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4ZzyaGZXWg

.
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John01W
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:

Did I really say or imply that? .


That's how it read to me, maybe I didn't read it right

voip wrote:


And Behringer are rubbish? DeepMind12?

It's not here yet, but doesn't it say effects by TC Electronic on it? Laughing
Yes I know they own them now....and I'm not snobbish towards Behringer...I've had plenty of their gear in the past and still use one of their mixers to this day....I can speak honestly about the quality of their products because I know from experience.

voip wrote:

Here's that cheap t*rd of a pedal with a synth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4ZzyaGZXWg

It sounds like what it is....a cheap knockoff of a boss pedal likely made with cheaper internal parts and casings....Difference is you could throw a boss pedal out a car window going 55, go pick it up and it would likely still work.....can't say the same for the behringer. Even Boss uses cheap components...modders like analogman and keeley got their start improving them.

Your clip didn't sound very good to me.....and I don't think anyone out there is going to claim even a REAL boss pedal will sound even close to a Strymon or Eventide....and anything run through that Behringer will have it's tone degraded analog dry path or not. That's a concern of the original poster. Generally pedals of that type are designed for instrument level signals not line level synths especially ones that can be so dynamic in the low end and high resonances in the filter which can clip those out if you don't run your synth levels low....this will make you increase the gain after the effects which will introduce noise....and considering the Behringer is reported to be noisier than the Boss version it's copying it might be an issue.

Don't even mention the quality of customer service from behringer like you'll get from an awesome company like Strymon or Eventide. I doubt anyone would even bother to fix the Behringer if it had a problem, probably just throw it away.
The Behringer is disposable, it's just not made to last.



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