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Understanding AMS (foot pedal vs knobs)
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thenewandy



Joined: 04 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: Understanding AMS (foot pedal vs knobs) Reply with quote

Hi, I'm trying to modify the stock preset IA-11 (Japanese Grand + Strings) on my Kronos X.

Out of the box, the knob 6 will adjust the level of the strings. If turned fully down, then I get no strings, if turned fully up then I get plenty of strings.

I would like to modify this so instead of using a knob, I can use the expression pedal I have plugged in.

I navigated to the place where knob 6 was chosen:

EXi2 -> Amp Mod -> Amp Modulation -> AMS2: Knob Mod 6 (CC#19)

Then I modified the AMS2 source to be "Foot Pedal (CC#04)" instead.

As expected, the foot pedal now can be used to adjust the volume of the strings, however what is unexpected is that I can't get the strings to be silent with the foot pedal, like I could with the knob.

I thought that perhaps the foot pedal was broken, so I plugged my laptop into the kronos and listened to the MIDI events that were being sent. I can confirm that both the knob and the foot pedal are capable of getting the kronos to send CCs from 0-127. It is at this point that I am stuck - my model was that if two things sent the same value, then they would have the same effect if they were used as AMS parameters, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Any explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Andy
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ando727
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Understanding AMS (foot pedal vs knobs) Reply with quote

thenewandy wrote:
Hi, I'm trying to modify the stock preset IA-11 (Japanese Grand + Strings) on my Kronos X.

Out of the box, the knob 6 will adjust the level of the strings. If turned fully down, then I get no strings, if turned fully up then I get plenty of strings.

I would like to modify this so instead of using a knob, I can use the expression pedal I have plugged in.

I navigated to the place where knob 6 was chosen:

EXi2 -> Amp Mod -> Amp Modulation -> AMS2: Knob Mod 6 (CC#19)

Then I modified the AMS2 source to be "Foot Pedal (CC#04)" instead.

As expected, the foot pedal now can be used to adjust the volume of the strings, however what is unexpected is that I can't get the strings to be silent with the foot pedal, like I could with the knob.

I thought that perhaps the foot pedal was broken, so I plugged my laptop into the kronos and listened to the MIDI events that were being sent. I can confirm that both the knob and the foot pedal are capable of getting the kronos to send CCs from 0-127. It is at this point that I am stuck - my model was that if two things sent the same value, then they would have the same effect if they were used as AMS parameters, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Any explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Andy


I think there is a feature where you can calibrate your pedal. You might have to do that. The Kronos needs to know the minimum and maximum resistance values of your pedal in order to sweep the minimum and maximum values of your parameters. I suspect your pedal is falling more into a zone in middle range rather than getting right to zero.

Note: I've never done this, it's just how I've done it on lots of other gear. I would assume the process must be similar on the Kronos because otherwise Korg would have to specify a specific pedal with the right resistance range. I'm sure the Kronos can calibrate to lots of different pedals.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you have assigned as the function for the foot pedal in global mode?
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BillW
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One quick/easy way is to put the Japanese grand and some strings in 2 separate programs in a combi then block the expression pedal to the piano in the midi filter tab.
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thenewandy



Joined: 04 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Understanding AMS (foot pedal vs knobs) Reply with quote

ando727 wrote:

I think there is a feature where you can calibrate your pedal. You might have to do that. The Kronos needs to know the minimum and maximum resistance values of your pedal in order to sweep the minimum and maximum values of your parameters. I suspect your pedal is falling more into a zone in middle range rather than getting right to zero.

Note: I've never done this, it's just how I've done it on lots of other gear. I would assume the process must be similar on the Kronos because otherwise Korg would have to specify a specific pedal with the right resistance range. I'm sure the Kronos can calibrate to lots of different pedals.

I don't think there is such thing for foot pedals. On the pedal itself, there is a calibration knob, but that just adjusts the maximum value. Also, since the MIDI events being output by the kronos range from 0 to 127 for both the foot pedal and the knob, I don't think this could be the problem (unless there is something that means the MIDI events being output are not the same as the events being used internally).

Quote:
One quick/easy way is to put the Japanese grand and some strings in 2 separate programs in a combi then block the expression pedal to the piano in the midi filter tab.

Thanks - but I know how I can get the result I want that way. Right now I'm trying to understand why what I am doing is behaving the way it is behaving (I think I am seeing this behaviour in other places, but this is the clearest example I have)

Quote:
What do you have assigned as the function for the foot pedal in global mode?

It is assigned as "Foot Pedal (CC#4)". Note that the foot pedal does have some effect on the volume, just not the same range as the knob has (so if this was not set correctly, then you wouldn't expect the pedal to have any effect).

Interestingly, if I assigned it to "RT Knob 6", then I get the behaviour I want for that particular patch (but I don't want to change that assignment globally).

This also made me wonder if there was another place within this patch which was using Knob 6, and I needed to modify both, however when I have the Amp Modulation set to be controlled by the Foot Pedal, I can't get it to silence the strings even if I turn knob 6 all the way down in addition to changing the foot pedal.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never use pedal set ups like you described, but where i have used AMS to change control of something, the "Intesity" settings for AMS has always been something to adjust to get the modulation to come through the source.
The intesity settings range from 100 below zero and up to 100 above zero. Maybe the pedal AMS assignment has intensity setting tied into the control range of the pedal. ?
Just a guess as something i would try if i were in the same situation.
Intensity minimum settings were advised as 24 if i recall. But i imagine all kinds of parameters under various controls would not all respond the same to the same intensity setting. Maybe something higher or lower is needed.
Sorry if this isn't a solution but i am curious to know what the solution is either way.
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thenewandy



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The intensity is set to "+99" but this is independent of the AMS source.

However, another interesting experiment - if I set the intensity to -99, then pushing the pedal all the way down will silence the strings.
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect the core of the problem is that knob 6 is set operating in +/- mode, not just adding, but both adding and removing.

The RT knobs have two modes of operation, one of them has a + at the end if I'm not mistaken. This one maps the knob range to 0 - 100%. This mode of operation will add. The other one, without the + has a range of -100% -> +100% which can be used to both add and subtract.

Could it be that the AMP is initially at a non-0 value, lets say 50 just as an example. And then using RT Knob 6 (the one ranging from -100%->+100%). When a program is loaded the RT knobs are reset to 0, so this would give you strings playing at AMP level 50. If the RT knob is mapped to +50, then turning it to max would add 50, making it louder at AMP=100, and turning it to minimum would reduce by 50 giving you AMP=0.

To have complete control from the pedal, which has a range of 0-100, you would have to set the initial string AMP OSC to 0 as the pedal can only add, not subtract.

It might be possible to remap the range using AMS, but I don't have the Kronos in front of me now and I don't remember which options are there off hand.

Hope this helps :)
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easiest to do this with a Combination. Make sure that you set the pedal to Expression CC#11 in Global Mode (and "Write" it). Then you can filter the pedal for the piano patch and leave it enabled for the string patch.
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thenewandy



Joined: 04 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunnar wrote:
I suspect the core of the problem is that knob 6 is set operating in +/- mode, not just adding, but both adding and removing.

The RT knobs have two modes of operation, one of them has a + at the end if I'm not mistaken. This one maps the knob range to 0 - 100%. This mode of operation will add. The other one, without the + has a range of -100% -> +100% which can be used to both add and subtract.

Good thinking.

Quote:
Could it be that the AMP is initially at a non-0 value, lets say 50 just as an example. And then using RT Knob 6 (the one ranging from -100%->+100%). When a program is loaded the RT knobs are reset to 0, so this would give you strings playing at AMP level 50. If the RT knob is mapped to +50, then turning it to max would add 50, making it louder at AMP=100, and turning it to minimum would reduce by 50 giving you AMP=0.

This is definitely a step in the right direction for explaining things - if I set it to "Knob Mod.6 [+]" instead of "Knob Mod.6 (CC#19)" then the range used with the knob seems to match the range of the pedal.

Quote:
To have complete control from the pedal, which has a range of 0-100, you would have to set the initial string AMP OSC to 0 as the pedal can only add, not subtract.

So, the patch has the "Velocity Intensity" set to +63, so this looked to be the perfect explanation, except changing this value seems to have no effect on the level of the strings. I have tried changing it between all the extremes when I have the AMS source as Foot Pedal, Knob 6, and Knob 6 [+].

I also tried changing the "Amp Level" (which is on the "Amp" tab, not the "Amp Mod" tab). If I pull that down to 0 then the strings are always silent.

Quote:
It might be possible to remap the range using AMS, but I don't have the Kronos in front of me now and I don't remember which options are there off hand.

Hope this helps Smile

Thanks - it was indeed helpful, even if I'm still not quite at the bottom of things.

Quote:

It's easiest to do this with a Combination. Make sure that you set the pedal to Expression CC#11 in Global Mode (and "Write" it). Then you can filter the pedal for the piano patch and leave it enabled for the string patch.

Thanks ronnfigg, but I'm mostly trying to understand the current behaviour - if I don't understand that, then I won't be able to deal with similar issues when I want to use AMS for other parameters.
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ronnfigg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try setting the foot pedal to expression in global mode.
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voip
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the XVP-20 expression pedal, the adjustment knob at the back alters the minimum level when using either of the two "outputs" for expression. It might be worth re-calibrating the pedal, first with the knob at maximum, and noting the volume range available, and then repeating the calibration with the knob at minimum. My guess is that the latter knob setting and calibration should result in the full volume range being available using the expression pedal, provided the adjustment knob is not moved afterwards.

The setting in the AMP effects will need to be reset for this to be correctly interpreted.

.
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KK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thenewandy,

Gunnar is correct and your pedal likely works just fine.

From what I understand, AMS set to a Knob Mod setting without the [+] makes the knob behave as if you want its ideal value in the middle position, so that you can augment and diminish what is controlled. I imagine this an unnamed "bidirectional mode".

And probably because pedals are not really meant to be used that way (you would for example need to feel some sort of mid-position click with your foot to know where is the middle position), then it behaves like any "unidirectional" controller, as if you would instead select Knob Mod.6[+] for AMS in this particular program. Hope this makes some sense (note that I own my Kronos since only a few months, so maybe there's some hidden parameter I still haven't discovered in MOD-7).

Oh and to achieve what you want, set the amplitude at a much lower level, like 010 so that it's barely audible when your pedal is up, then for Amp Mod, select AMS Mixer 1 instead, then in AMS Mixer 1, choose Amount A x B, then use AMS Mixer 2 and 3 for both AMSs and max +99 values for them, then in those two mixers, again with +99 values and Amt A x B, select your pedal four times. It's a fun way to exponentially multiply the increase in value of the tiny initial 010 set at Amp. You could even add more if needed as there are eight AMS Mixers. Very Happy

The Kronos is truly a great machine.
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thenewandy



Joined: 04 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
thenewandy,

Gunnar is correct and your pedal likely works just fine.

Yeah, I am not doubting that the pedal is working fine - the MIDI output is pretty good confirmation that it is doing the right thing.

[qupte]From what I understand, AMS set to a Knob Mod setting without the [+] makes the knob behave as if you want its ideal value in the middle position, so that you can augment and diminish what is controlled. I imagine this an unnamed "bidirectional mode".[/quote]
Yes, I agree, and I can see this behaviour happening - using the "[+]" mode of the knob means that I get the same behaviour as the pedal.

Quote:
And probably because pedals are not really meant to be used that way (you would for example need to feel some sort of mid-position click with your foot to know where is the middle position), then it behaves like any "unidirectional" controller, as if you would instead select Knob Mod.6[+] for AMS in this particular program. Hope this makes some sense (note that I own my Kronos since only a few months, so maybe there's some hidden parameter I still haven't discovered in MOD-7).

Yes, this all makes sense. However, what I can't see is how I can set the "ideal" position for this particular parameter.

So, one thing which I hadn't appreciated was that the parameter I am talking about is the velocity based amp modulation - i.e. how sensitive it should be to how hard I play. This is not the same thing as the velocity.

So, my understanding is that I have:

1) The "ideal" velocity intensity (+63 in this case)
2) Onto which is added the two AMS things, scaled according to their intensity
3) The intensity itself is able to be modified by another AMS, however in my case it is off

After this, a single "velocity intensity" number is calculated, and used for sound output.

Presuming this is all true, then I would expect that if I turned off AMS altogether, then I should be able to mimic the behaviour of the knob just by modifying the ideal velocity intensity.

However, when I turn off all the AMS things here. I can't find any value of velocity intensity which gives the same behaviour as the knob turned all the way down.

If I put it at -99, then playing soft means I get loud strings, and playing loud means I get soft strings.

If I put it at 0, then the strings are no longer velocity sensitive.

If I put it at +99, then playing soft means I get soft strings and playing loud means I get loud strings.

For my own sanity, I went back to try with the knob, to make sure the strings were indeed silent, not just very quiet, and I'm pretty sure I can't hear them when I play at any velocity level.

Is it possible that there are values for velocity intensity that are outside the -99 to +99 range, and they can only be reached by using AMS? e.g. if it were set to +200, then maybe even the hardest playing wouldn't be able to get the strings to be audible. However, if this is the case, then I would have expected that turning the knob to the maximum would be silencing the strings, not making them louder.
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KK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello there,

It depends what you want to achieve. I thought you only wanted to replace the Knob 6 with your pedal for the program.

Velocity intensity is one thing, and the other AMS are others. They don't have to be working together at all. In other words, if you like the effect that the strings get louder when you play harder, then keep the current velocity intensity midway at +63. And as you know, if you want the strings to stay the same loudness regardless of velocity, use 0 for this setting.

Of course, your chosen Velocity intensity value will influence the Amp Level on the Amp tab. Same with the chosen values for the other AMS settings. But again, you decide how you want the strings to behave. So if you use 0 for velocity, you might need to turn the Amp Level down before adjusting the pedal AMS level, etc. And use the AMS mixers if needed to create exponential reaction for a single source like your pedal, etc. Hope this helps !
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