Korg Forums A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world. Moderated Independently. Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: Triggering Karma with Ableton Push 2
Im looking to be able to trigger Karma with my Ableton Push pads. I have looked at a number of videos and post (including the helpful videos by Qui) but Im still not figuring out how I need to route the midi in Ableton from the Kronos so I am able to trigger pads to play Karma. I would gratefully appreciate if anyone was able to point me in the direction or post on how to do this.
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2979 Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:54 am Post subject:
Global > Controllers/Scales > Controllers. Menu Button > Reset Controller MIDI Assign. Choose "CC Default".
At the bottom, you will see the CC assignments for the Pads. You can set the Ableton to send these specific CCs to activate the pads (easiest).
You can also change the CC number (or set it to a Note Number) for each pad (more advanced). I'm not sure if the Ableton Push sends CCs or note numbers, but you can choose here.
The Ableton should be sending on the Global MIDI Channel of the Kronos. And the Ableton should be sending MIDI *TO* the Kronos, not vice versa as your message implies. _________________ Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:43 am Post subject:
StephenKay wrote:
You can also change the CC number (or set it to a Note Number) for each pad (more advanced). I'm not sure if the Ableton Push sends CCs or note numbers, but you can choose here.
indeed, this is the way to go if you want to use the Push pads to trigger KARMA modules based on the pads.
But the original question is not really clear to me, but if you set it up like explained in my picture then you can use the kronos KARMA engine on VST's and other Hardware Synths, and you can use the Push to control the Kronos. But instead of using a Virus TI at the midi in (step 1), just select the Push controller there.
Now the next part you have to do is what Stephen said, you have to assign note numbers to the 8 pads to use that with the Push controller. To do this:
- press the global button on the kronos
- press the controllers / scales tab
- press the controllers Subtab
- at the bottom you see a section called MIDI CC Asssign - vector joystick / pads
- enter C1 for pad 1
- enter C#1 for pad 2
- enter D1 for pad 3
- etc...
- press the right top menu and save the global system
Now select midi track 1 in ableton (the one labeled Korg Kronos in my picture) and press the pad C1, now you have triggered pad 1 on the kronos through your push (and as a bonus all KARMA notes are going to the FM8 VST in the picture (if you have local control set to on on your kronos)
Global > Controllers/Scales > Controllers. Menu Button > Reset Controller MIDI Assign. Choose "CC Default".
At the bottom, you will see the CC assignments for the Pads. You can set the Ableton to send these specific CCs to activate the pads (easiest).
You can also change the CC number (or set it to a Note Number) for each pad (more advanced). I'm not sure if the Ableton Push sends CCs or note numbers, but you can choose here.
The Ableton should be sending on the Global MIDI Channel of the Kronos. And the Ableton should be sending MIDI *TO* the Kronos, not vice versa as your message implies.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified that I am trying to use karma inside of ableton to trigger VST's but I want Push to be the controller. I am not looking to sequence inside of the Kronos but rather inside of ableton. What I'm looking to do is use karma on a vst and when I use a pad with push as the controller, I hear the vst with karma. Would the technique you suggested still work in this scenario?
You can also change the CC number (or set it to a Note Number) for each pad (more advanced). I'm not sure if the Ableton Push sends CCs or note numbers, but you can choose here.
indeed, this is the way to go if you want to use the Push pads to trigger KARMA modules based on the pads.
But the original question is not really clear to me, but if you set it up like explained in my picture then you can use the kronos KARMA engine on VST's and other Hardware Synths, and you can use the Push to control the Kronos. But instead of using a Virus TI at the midi in (step 1), just select the Push controller there.
Now the next part you have to do is what Stephen said, you have to assign note numbers to the 8 pads to use that with the Push controller. To do this:
- press the global button on the kronos
- press the controllers / scales tab
- press the controllers Subtab
- at the bottom you see a section called MIDI CC Asssign - vector joystick / pads
- enter C1 for pad 1
- enter C#1 for pad 2
- enter D1 for pad 3
- etc...
- press the right top menu and save the global system
Now select midi track 1 in ableton (the one labeled Korg Kronos in my picture) and press the pad C1, now you have triggered pad 1 on the kronos through your push (and as a bonus all KARMA notes are going to the FM8 VST in the picture (if you have local control set to on on your kronos)
Hey Qui thanks for the response! There is one part of your instructions that Is not clear to me. You say to "record the chords first" in step 1. Are you saying I must record the midi from the karma before I am able to use them in push? What I am looking to do is use a push pad and hear the effected midi from the karma on a vst just as if I was playing the piano keys in the Kronos with karma. Could you elaborate on the first step? I did not try selecting push as my main midi keyboard so I will try that as well. Thank you
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject:
Amos922 wrote:
Hey Qui thanks for the response! There is one part of your instructions that Is not clear to me. You say to "record the chords first" in step 1. Are you saying I must record the midi from the karma before I am able to use them in push? What I am looking to do is use a push pad and hear the effected midi from the karma on a vst just as if I was playing the piano keys in the Kronos with karma. Could you elaborate on the first step? I did not try selecting push as my main midi keyboard so I will try that as well. Thank you
yes the recording is for when you want to use it always as a pattern, but if you just want to record the KARMA notes live then you don't have to record the chords but just play the notes live on the push controller, since it's standard Note information you are sending it will work the same as described in the screenshot, but then with live output.
If you assign the Push controller as your input (see step 1) then it works, you don't have to assign the pads if you just want to use the pads on the push as a standard keyboard.
It's not hard to do, i'm sure you will find out how to do it.
So without all the extra connections (for instance the midi CC mapper is not necessary, that's only for aumation control), you just need two tracks, one midi track (like step one, where you assign the push controller to the Kronos Sound CH1 output, and one VST channel where you select the Kronos Keyboard as your midi input and (very important!) set monitor to IN (the blue button), so that it always receive the KARMA notes.
Of course you need to strip down the KARMA information on the kronos in the KARMA filter tab, like CC information, because every vst has it's own interpretation of those CC's and in most cases you just want the note information, but that's step 2, first try to get it working.
Joined: 18 Jun 2002 Posts: 2979 Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject:
Amos922 wrote:
StephenKay wrote:
Global > Controllers/Scales > Controllers. Menu Button > Reset Controller MIDI Assign. Choose "CC Default".
At the bottom, you will see the CC assignments for the Pads. You can set the Ableton to send these specific CCs to activate the pads (easiest).
You can also change the CC number (or set it to a Note Number) for each pad (more advanced). I'm not sure if the Ableton Push sends CCs or note numbers, but you can choose here.
The Ableton should be sending on the Global MIDI Channel of the Kronos. And the Ableton should be sending MIDI *TO* the Kronos, not vice versa as your message implies.
I'm sorry, I should have clarified that I am trying to use karma inside of ableton to trigger VST's but I want Push to be the controller. I am not looking to sequence inside of the Kronos but rather inside of ableton. What I'm looking to do is use karma on a vst and when I use a pad with push as the controller, I hear the vst with karma. Would the technique you suggested still work in this scenario?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I thought the Push was a controller device (like a nanopad etc.). If you want to trigger KARMA Pads with an external controller device, then this information works. I suspect from Qui's answer that you are trying to do something more complicated. _________________ Stephen Kay - KARMA Developer • Karma-Lab - karma-lab.com
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:59 pm Post subject:
StephenKay wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure. I thought the Push was a controller device (like a nanopad etc.). If you want to trigger KARMA Pads with an external controller device, then this information works. I suspect from Qui's answer that you are trying to do something more complicated.
the push is a controller device, but it can do a lot. One of the things is that you can sent note information per pad, so you can play normal piano tunes on the pads (actually it's rather easy to do). Now what he wanted was to play notes and chords live pads (just like on a real keyboard). Then KARMA was generating note information based on those notes / chords and those output notes were routed to a VST (or other hardware synth).
He succeeded doing that by the way.
Now when you got that working things are going to get really interesting, it's possible for instance to change the Push 2 controller to a step sequenced note generator (pattern based), with an unlimited number of tracks. Once you have setup it correctly you can assign any note to any step and sent that to the KARMA engine. KARMA will output notes to your VST or other hardware synth based on those stepsequenced input and that's a lot of performance power. I use this a lot in my studio where i can Route the four KARMA modules to any synth or VST i have in realtime or stepsequenced.
Then you can go even a step further by assigning push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page (the RTC control sliders and knobs CC22 - CC31) . Than you can modify the KARMA parameters from the control page per sequenced step !!!
This can be done including note information or without note information.
Since this is all done on the push controller by just pressing some pads or turning some knobs you have created a KARMA controller that can do really impressive things.
But my guess is that i'm one of the few that actually are using it that way, but it is a really powerful solution.
To be honest, I'm not sure. I thought the Push was a controller device (like a nanopad etc.). If you want to trigger KARMA Pads with an external controller device, then this information works. I suspect from Qui's answer that you are trying to do something more complicated.
the push is a controller device, but it can do a lot. One of the things is that you can sent note information per pad, so you can play normal piano tunes on the pads (actually it's rather easy to do). Now what he wanted was to play notes and chords live pads (just like on a real keyboard). Then KARMA was generating note information based on those notes / chords and those output notes were routed to a VST (or other hardware synth).
He succeeded doing that by the way.
Now when you got that working things are going to get really interesting, it's possible for instance to change the Push 2 controller to a step sequenced note generator (pattern based), with an unlimited number of tracks. Once you have setup it correctly you can assign any note to any step and sent that to the KARMA engine. KARMA will output notes to your VST or other hardware synth based on those stepsequenced input and that's a lot of performance power. I use this a lot in my studio where i can Route the four KARMA modules to any synth or VST i have in realtime or stepsequenced.
Then you can go even a step further by assigning push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page (the RTC control sliders and knobs CC22 - CC31) . Than you can modify the KARMA parameters from the control page per sequenced step !!!
This can be done including note information or without note information.
Since this is all done on the push controller by just pressing some pads or turning some knobs you have created a KARMA controller that can do really impressive things.
But my guess is that i'm one of the few that actually are using it that way, but it is a really powerful solution.
Wow! You just opened up a whole new set of possibilities! Thats the kind of control over my workflow I envisioned having when i purchased the Push 2 controller! Could you elaborate on how to set up the following two steps you spoke about?
I know how to use the sequence per step page but how would I change the push controller into a "pattern based step sequenced note generator" or go about setting it up to assign push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page?
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:29 am Post subject:
Amos922 wrote:
Wow! You just opened up a whole new set of possibilities! Thats the kind of control over my workflow I envisioned having when i purchased the Push 2 controller! Could you elaborate on how to set up the following two steps you spoke about?
I know how to use the sequence per step page but how would I change the push controller into a "pattern based step sequenced note generator" or go about setting it up to assign push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page?
It's really easy to setup if you know how ableton and the push 2 works.
To make it work you create a new combi on the kronos:
- you have 16 timbres now to create sounds with
- set midi channel 1 on timbre 1
- set midi channel 2 on timbre 2
- set midi channel 3 on timbre 3
- set midi channel 4 on timbre 4
- etc..... till you reach 16
- now select the sounds you want to use for each timbre on the kronos For instance: a piano on timbre 1, a bass on timbre 2, a guitar on timbre 3 and a drumkit on timbre 4
Now on the Push:
- just add 16 midi tracks which you route to the Kronos Sound midi port
- set each midi track to the correct midi channel, so midi track 1 to midi channel 1, midi track 2 to midi channel 2, etc..
- then select the midi track of your choice and add a pattern and go to step sequencer mode. If you need another pattern just add an extra pattern on the same track
- do the same for midi track 2, 3 and 4 (etc...)
- now add some step sequenced melodies (you can combine all your patterns to a song later in session view on the push)
The technique for step sequencing on the push 2 is really easy, just check this quick tutorial how to do it
step sequencing melodies on the push 2
Once your done, you have created a 16 midi channel kronos step sequenced pattern based setup.
Save the combi, so you can use it any time you want. Save the Push setup as a new live set in ableton
Now when you want to incorperate KARMA you have to set one (or more) of the timbre channels to EXT and route the KARMA module to that. To make the automation work create a multimapper setup (like explained in my picture) but instead of using the CC's from the screenshot, use CC 22 - 30. Map those to the macros and give them a good name so that you can read it from the oled display on your push.
Then you can modify the KARMA sliders in realtime or assign step sequenced patterns to it. If you want to record motions just press the automation button on the push and press record and do the sweeps with your knobs on top of the push. Or switch to step sequenced pattern mode and enter your desired automation behavior per step.
The step automation is explained in the following video.
step automation on the push 2 (from 1:53)
Now this is only the basics of some of the operations, you can do lots and lots more when you know how the push 2 works, this basic playlist below is the bare minimum you need to know to get started with the push 2 before heading to the more advanced stuff.
25 videos of how to operate the push 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu4Y8hObjCs&list=PLoh4MB-kbBmKXRhohbHS7Qjv3vazRl4X_
Wow! You just opened up a whole new set of possibilities! Thats the kind of control over my workflow I envisioned having when i purchased the Push 2 controller! Could you elaborate on how to set up the following two steps you spoke about?
I know how to use the sequence per step page but how would I change the push controller into a "pattern based step sequenced note generator" or go about setting it up to assign push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page?
It's really easy to setup if you know how ableton and the push 2 works.
To make it work you create a new combi on the kronos:
- you have 16 timbres now to create sounds with
- set midi channel 1 on timbre 1
- set midi channel 2 on timbre 2
- set midi channel 3 on timbre 3
- set midi channel 4 on timbre 4
- etc..... till you reach 16
- now select the sounds you want to use for each timbre on the kronos For instance: a piano on timbre 1, a bass on timbre 2, a guitar on timbre 3 and a drumkit on timbre 4
Now on the Push:
- just add 16 midi tracks which you route to the Kronos Sound midi port
- set each midi track to the correct midi channel, so midi track 1 to midi channel 1, midi track 2 to midi channel 2, etc..
- then select the midi track of your choice and add a pattern and go to step sequencer mode. If you need another pattern just add an extra pattern on the same track
- do the same for midi track 2, 3 and 4 (etc...)
- now add some step sequenced melodies (you can combine all your patterns to a song later in session view on the push)
The technique for step sequencing on the push 2 is really easy, just check this quick tutorial how to do it
step sequencing melodies on the push 2
Once your done, you have created a 16 midi channel kronos step sequenced pattern based setup.
Save the combi, so you can use it any time you want. Save the Push setup as a new live set in ableton
Now when you want to incorperate KARMA you have to set one (or more) of the timbre channels to EXT and route the KARMA module to that. To make the automation work create a multimapper setup (like explained in my picture) but instead of using the CC's from the screenshot, use CC 22 - 30. Map those to the macros and give them a good name so that you can read it from the oled display on your push.
Then you can modify the KARMA sliders in realtime or assign step sequenced patterns to it. If you want to record motions just press the automation button on the push and press record and do the sweeps with your knobs on top of the push. Or switch to step sequenced pattern mode and enter your desired automation behavior per step.
The step automation is explained in the following video.
step automation on the push 2 (from 1:53)
Now this is only the basics of some of the operations, you can do lots and lots more when you know how the push 2 works, this basic playlist below is the bare minimum you need to know to get started with the push 2 before heading to the more advanced stuff.
25 videos of how to operate the push 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu4Y8hObjCs&list=PLoh4MB-kbBmKXRhohbHS7Qjv3vazRl4X_[/quote
I appreciate all of your help! I actually watched all 25 of those videos prior to asking this question on the forum lol My issue is that I sometimes i struggle wrapping my brain around the midi routing possibilities that are possible with my instruments such as the push 2. Im always looking to kick start my production to the next level and the push seems like it has most of what I am looking for as a centerpiece in my studio.
I am welcome to all levels of instruction, especially the advanced stuff lol I just want to get as much as I can out of this instrument! Lately I have found myself using more VST's than I have been using the actually Kronos but I love the idea of sending note information from the Karma to my VST's.
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:31 am Post subject:
Amos922 wrote:
I appreciate all of your help! I actually watched all 25 of those videos prior to asking this question on the forum lol My issue is that I sometimes i struggle wrapping my brain around the midi routing possibilities that are possible with my instruments such as the push 2. Im always looking to kick start my production to the next level and the push seems like it has most of what I am looking for as a centerpiece in my studio.
I am welcome to all levels of instruction, especially the advanced stuff lol I just want to get as much as I can out of this instrument! Lately I have found myself using more VST's than I have been using the actually Kronos but I love the idea of sending note information from the Karma to my VST's.
the midi routing possibilities is where it gets interesting, to make that work it's essential that you have a good understanding of the midi input and midi output and monitor settings of each midi track in ableton. There you do the routing where you can assign the push as one of your controllers.
There are more ways to do the integration, let me clarify that with the help of a few examples i have created in the past on my channel so that you can get some ideas of how to do this.
Using the Push as a loop recorder combined with kronos
In this tutorial i show how to setup ableton so that the complete push panel will act as a loop recording tool to record quick ideas on your kronos. It's really powerfull because you on one push you have 8 tracks with 8 scenes available per page (unlimited number of pages), this tutorial shows how to setup one page.
Combining the sounds of the Kronos with VST's
In this example you see a way to use the sounds of a kronos Combi combined with drums from an Ableton live device and sounds from VST's and some effect audio samples in ableton.
Now the hard part is to get everything in sync. When you are using VST's and hardware together you have to take care of the Latency that is introduced with this. In ableton you do this by creating an external instrument and assign the audio inputs to that external instrument (the audio inputs of your audiocard where you connected the kronos to). Of course you can use other FX's (like for instance the overdrive fx of ableton) on the sounds of the kronos.
In this demo i've used this technique
Getting hardware in sync based on a midi clock combined with ableton audio effects
This demo is more complex to setup, when you are using stepsequencers on other hardware you need to decide which one is the master clock to get everything in sync. (Like in this demo i'm combining the stepsequencer of the Aira TR8, the Aira TB3 and a couple of VST patterns of ableton). The important part is that in this demo i'm using the midi clock of the Aira TR8, this one is sending it's master clock to ableton live which is slaved to the tr-8, the midi clock is also sent to the TB3. The kronos isn't in this demo, but it could easely be slaved to the same midi clock of the TR8 by routing that midi clock signal to the kronos. Then the KARMA modules, step sequencers and midi synced lfo's would all be in sync based on the tempo chosen of the TR8.
In this demo i used the above technique
So these were just a few examples of different kind of uses where i use the Push as the centerpiece in my studio(these demo's were recorded with a push 1 which is basically the same as the push 2, i have a push 2 nowadays).
So my advice, focus on the IO section in ableton and get a thorough understanding of that area, it will open your studio for lots of creative uses.
Wow! You just opened up a whole new set of possibilities! Thats the kind of control over my workflow I envisioned having when i purchased the Push 2 controller! Could you elaborate on how to set up the following two steps you spoke about?
I know how to use the sequence per step page but how would I change the push controller into a "pattern based step sequenced note generator" or go about setting it up to assign push macro mappings to the CC automation parameters of the KARMA control page?
It's really easy to setup if you know how ableton and the push 2 works.
To make it work you create a new combi on the kronos:
- you have 16 timbres now to create sounds with
- set midi channel 1 on timbre 1
- set midi channel 2 on timbre 2
- set midi channel 3 on timbre 3
- set midi channel 4 on timbre 4
- etc..... till you reach 16
- now select the sounds you want to use for each timbre on the kronos For instance: a piano on timbre 1, a bass on timbre 2, a guitar on timbre 3 and a drumkit on timbre 4
Now on the Push:
- just add 16 midi tracks which you route to the Kronos Sound midi port
- set each midi track to the correct midi channel, so midi track 1 to midi channel 1, midi track 2 to midi channel 2, etc..
- then select the midi track of your choice and add a pattern and go to step sequencer mode. If you need another pattern just add an extra pattern on the same track
- do the same for midi track 2, 3 and 4 (etc...)
- now add some step sequenced melodies (you can combine all your patterns to a song later in session view on the push)
The technique for step sequencing on the push 2 is really easy, just check this quick tutorial how to do it
step sequencing melodies on the push 2
Once your done, you have created a 16 midi channel kronos step sequenced pattern based setup.
Save the combi, so you can use it any time you want. Save the Push setup as a new live set in ableton
Now when you want to incorperate KARMA you have to set one (or more) of the timbre channels to EXT and route the KARMA module to that. To make the automation work create a multimapper setup (like explained in my picture) but instead of using the CC's from the screenshot, use CC 22 - 30. Map those to the macros and give them a good name so that you can read it from the oled display on your push.
Then you can modify the KARMA sliders in realtime or assign step sequenced patterns to it. If you want to record motions just press the automation button on the push and press record and do the sweeps with your knobs on top of the push. Or switch to step sequenced pattern mode and enter your desired automation behavior per step.
The step automation is explained in the following video.
step automation on the push 2 (from 1:53)
Now this is only the basics of some of the operations, you can do lots and lots more when you know how the push 2 works, this basic playlist below is the bare minimum you need to know to get started with the push 2 before heading to the more advanced stuff.
25 videos of how to operate the push 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu4Y8hObjCs&list=PLoh4MB-kbBmKXRhohbHS7Qjv3vazRl4X_[/quote
I appreciate all of your help! I actually watched all 25 of those videos prior to asking this question on the forum lol My issue is that I sometimes i struggle wrapping my brain around the midi routing possibilities that are possible with my instruments such as the push 2. Im always looking to kick start my production to the next level and the push seems like it has most of what I am looking for as a centerpiece in my studio.
I am welcome to all levels of instruction, especially the advanced stuff lol I just want to get as much as I can out of this instrument! Lately I have found myself using more VST's than I have been using the actually Kronos but I love the idea of sending note information from the Karma to my VST's.
These are all amazing techiques. I have been spending the last few days watching your videos and getting a grip on these techniques and also with routing midi inside of ableton. I appreciate your help and will definitely reach out if I run into any more problems. Im glad I purchased Push, I think it was a smart investment!
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
