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[GregC]

[burningbusch]

All I can say is stems. It's how pros lock down and transfer their sessions and so should you. I've never understood the idea that everything needs to be kept in a MIDI work state long after the idea has finalized. Keep the MIDI as backup, but bounce it and move on.

I've been using DAWs before they were DAWs, e.g. MOTU Performer, and have learned the hard way it's a dynamic environment. Plugins stop working because the developer has stopped updating them. Apple or the DAW developer makes some "improvement" that now screws up compatibility. Something gets inadvertently deleted.

Even recently, out of laziness, I made this mistake. I had a piece I wrote that I thought was done. But after many listening's and good bit of time, I determined the B section came in too loud. I went back to the original session in the DAW, started playback only to find it was a mess. The problem track had not been locked down (bounced to audio). Instead I had FM8 on a track with it's output being sent to Stutter Edit. Stutter Edit makes changes to the audio based on it's settings and MIDI trigger points on its track. FM8 has its own MIDI track which it needs to produce the notes plus of course FM8 needed to be set exactly as I had it originally. Plus there was track automation in play. Something was amiss but I simply couldn't figure out how to get it to sound exactly, or even closely to the original track. Too many dependencies and variables.

Anyhow, software isn't going to future proof anything.

Busch.
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[amit]

Saving Stems is the way to go, and that is how I Do it however with Kronos its not as obvious how to go about that for everyone.

I had written a kind of Automation script that generated a midi file for the DAW, It sends sysex messages to kronos sequencer depending on parameters and soloed 1 track at a time and recorded it then next track etc. : http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=693920#693920

However it's windows only.

Having said that,
If there is interest I can explain the manual procedure on how to record stems from Kronos into the DAW's, that you can save later as wav files (OS independent).

I have done this countless times and it does make for a better workflow as you can have different mixes for A/B testing etc.
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[GregC]

[timbukktwo]

This thread has wings; I knew it!

[timbukktwo]

Mike Conway wrote:
Nice of you to say, Greg. Thanks!

GregC wrote:
I will try to replace my skepticism with your +15 year Kronos platform prediction.


I'm just going by how long I've had various gear, especially the OASYS, which is 12 years old, now. With all the generations of Kronos boards, up to this point, it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement for the next several years.



GregC-

This really is my sentiment as well. The Oasys/Kronos platform, while maybe not perfectly future-proof, is still viable for a long time coming. I truly think there's comfort for us, brothers! Like I've said earlier, I hope Korg continues to support this platform with a few more updates, maybe an additional engine (yea!) before (moving on-?) to something new (whatever that is)!

[GregC]

[GregC]

[SanderXpander]

Software is definitely not future proof, as I also tried to say, badly I suppose. Hard drives die, updates break compatibility, etc. etc.

The best long-term bet, as was pointed out numerous times now, is WAVs of every track. Store them in a few places too. WAV files have been universal for decades and will hopefully remain so for our lifetime.

It's interesting to hear you really keep revisiting old work. It's very different from how I work but I suppose it's also different if you're producing music purely at your leisure, next to (I suppose?) a regular job/life. I do have projects that last a while (sometimes quite long) but once the thing is "done" I always move on. It makes little sense for me to revisit something that has been sent off to be mastered and possibly released. Truth be told it helps me to have deadlines like those.

Trying to think of it in terms of your workflow, I do think the software route will be safer in the long run, but that is mostly because it's a lot easier to bounce midi parts to audio. You'll obviously have the midi of everything you make but I would consider it a bonus if it works five years and two OS/DAW updates later. In Logic, you can either bounce to disk all tracks individually with a single command (leaving your project otherwise unaffected), or "bounce-and-replace" all tracks in place, meaning every softsynth and audio track with plugin fx will be transformed into a regular audio track. Do a "save as" after this but then you'll have a perfect replica of your song at that moment in time. Your project audio folder will have all the WAVs if you ever arrive at a time where even the Logic project won't open. This way you may need to rerecord parts you want to adapt significantly but you will have all your sounds and you would be able to make simple audio cuts and pastes, and you can mute parts and remix everything as much as you like.

[GregC]

[Gunnar]

This is a really tricky one, because at the end of the day there isn't any option that will give you 100% what you need.

Like you, I don't gig and I don't play in a band, I just play for fun. Music is not my profession either, I write software for a living. I do tend to think of my songs as reflection of me at a given time, though. So when I start presenting my music to friends and family, I usually go a few more iterations based on things I notice and feedback I get, but then leave it at that and move on. That means that for me, a .wav file is sufficient. If I were to pick up a song later on, then I can always do those takes again. The time consuming part for me is to get the structure of the song. Back on topic..

I have pretty good confidence that .wav files will be readable in my lifetime. It is a dead-solid, loss-less format which is trivial to write a loader for (from a programmer's perspective), so this is something I can trust for a long time. mp3 on the other hand, I would not trust beyond 10 years... It has been present a while, but compression is lossy (which is bad on its own), but a better compression file format might come and replace it at any time and players might lose support for it as usage dwindles. It might be available in 2030 or it might be something we look back on with a frown.

Same thing with any software solution. Software rots fast, we call it "bitrot". That doesn't mean that the code itself change and deteriorate over time, but the conditions under which software was written change. There are OS updates, there are hardware updates, there are changes to dependent libraries, config files etc... All of these end up with a highly dynamic system which is why software updates always break something. I'm a software developer myself, so I don't mean this as disrespect to other software developers, I'm just stating how the life of software tends to be :)

A laptop has an average lifespan of 3 years. A desktop computer, perhaps 5-6 years. After that, you're on borrowed time. With frequent updates due to increasing security concerns, hacker attacks and general bug fixing and the desire for more features that some times leaves old features behind, the software ends up changing to a large degree. The implication for DAWs is that while you can be pretty sure your future computer with a future version of your favourite DAW can load your old projects, you can also be pretty sure that you're going to have a hard time getting all of your plugins to load. This means your projects won't sound the same, and if you're a bit unlucky, they'll be just broken. Again, this isn't because plugin manufacturers are bad people, but things change, they might replace plugins with new versions which are slightly different, move to a different plugin set and leave old ones behind, go out of business or become incompatible for some other reason.

If I compare that to my trusty old Korg X3 which I bought back in 1994, it still loads the 3.5inch floppy disk projects I created back then and it still runs solid as anything. I'm not saying that those projects sound awesome, but at least they load and sound the same :) No computer I have from that area will even boot, so there is something to be said for the stable harware synth over the more fluctuating computer market. The Kronos is a lot more complex than my old X3, so I doubt that it will last me 20+ years.. Hell, mine already has a dodgy joystick after 1.5 years, but I still have more faith in its long term compatibility because it only gets a minor full-os update every now and then, and I can trust that Korg did some end-to-end testing of the update prior to shipping (or that they'll bring an update within a reasonable amount of time when something slips through). Full end-to-end testing of a computer is in practice not possible as every laptop has a unique set of updates, files, applications and configurations. I expect my Kronos to outlive any software or Mac I currently have in my possession by at least a generation or two, simply because the computer side is so unstable.

So what am I really saying here. If you want to go back to a project absolutely as is, you will have to trust that the computer or hardware you produced it on is still alive when you choose to do that, or something quite similar to it. At this point, I realize I'm sounding quite grim, which was not what I intended :) My main point was to emphasis the focus on transition paths which are sustainable long term. Mike pointed out a few transition paths that has worked for him which sound pretty amazing and those are based on hardware rather than software. Like SanderXpander, I've put my faith in stereo mixdowns because once my songs are done, they are done. If I were to go back, it would be a new version and I can start that over again.

If you do go for a software/PC/Mac solution, then along your DAW projects, I would save stereo mixdowns of the (currently considered) finished thing as .wav files, each individual track as a .wav files, and MIDI dumps as well. I would also limit my use of esoteric VST/AU plugins simply because I wouldn't trust those to be around and compatible for 10+ years. For the more fancy VST synths, bump those to audio tracks so you capture the sound, not just the notes. That gives you a reasonable chance of being to load something that looks and sounds like what you were working on x years past.

I hope you find a solution that works for you!

[amit]

Its nice to see how each of us has a different perception on what a Song is to them. There are no Rights or Wrongs in here.

I ain't a musician by professions either (Software/tech Consultant). So Most of the music that I do is for fun and Sanity

I mostly play improvisational music etc, but at times do record songs or pieces.

For me the song usually is based off the current state of things,mind, mood or the current feelings about ?, So changing that later in future is usually no go for me, as I am not in that state anymore, so any change I do will only take away from what that song is reminiscent of , like a snapshot of that moment in time.

Yet there are songs/music that I have done purely for non-self purposes (jingles/demos/presentation /for friends or other commercials) those unless already consumed by the use case , always have or may have the scope of improvement so keeping options open has always been a good idea.

on an another analogy, consider your-self an artist, say a painter , or a sculptor or any else, the most important thing here is the Art-Piece itself, not the tools you used,or the paint you used or the brushes etc. Yes they impart their own character to a certain degree, yet you being the sole creator do have the say in what makes that art piece what it is, That's your expression, you get to decide when it's final or done (though the hardest part). Thing to note here is You and Your Art, with times to come you'll learn the new tools and will be able to express yourself with them as you have been able to learn and express yourself with current generation of tools. Software or Hardware should not matter today or tomorrow, but what you do with that.

As has been advised earlier, Saving Stems has always been the choice of professionals because that removed a lot of the intricate dependencies.
A lot of this has to do with the use of multi track recorders and how that helped shape the things,
If for a moment you forget you have midi recording, then what all are you left with: Just Audio. Use and Keep that and you'd be future proof for most of the things. You could replace synth bass with a real player or guitars etc, yet keeping everything else intact, need different overheads, perhaps a different kick etc,.
You could have different mixes, or Master Setups, those who have been recording for some time would immediately realize how these hings have changed over time to time and come back etc (especially the Dynamic Range).
With the Advent of auto tune systems like Melodyne etc, you can even edit your instruments audio take and correct timing and pitch of played notes if need be.

All of these use cases and many more require that you at the least have stems (different audio track for each instrument). You can save some work if you store Midi but that is not future proof because although some things are standard like note numbers , a midi will contain automation cc parameters or worse SYSEX. If you play that midi with any other synth engine you are more than likely bound to find it troublesome unless the new synth also uses exact same parameters and cc mappings (very unlikely).

The Midi at best can serve you as a reference unless it's utterly simple (but if it's simple enough you should have no problems recording that again in the first place) , so do remember that.

The above has been my experience over the years (maybe it can be helpful to someone),

If I write anything on Kronos Seq as a Song that I might need to revisit, I save the AUDIO Stems in my PC). I stopped saving my final projects as midi, as that served me no purpose when the need arose. Though I do Use Midi extensively while working on the Project.

For me it would be counterproductive to worry about the tools, of today as I don't know what the future holds for me or my tool, the Only constant that matters to me is my RAW references (Tracks/Stems, that I Know will be the same, with the least dependencies).
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[GregC]

[spaceman3]

When i get my hands on 3 grand, i am getting a backup KRONOS.
The more i read about pc software, the more i do not like it.
That is just my personal preference.
I am sticking with KRONOS till the day i die.
As a songwriter, KRONOS offers me everything.
Personaly i think KRONOS sounds as good, and in some cases better than pc software synths.
Sound development has sort of hit a brick wall anyway.
I do not hear anything new that is blowing KRONOS out of the water, but thats just my opinion.
Great sounds are timeless, and KRONOS will still sound amazing long into the future.
Again, just my preference and opinion.
Afterall, i am obsessed with KRONOS.

[timbukktwo]

I may be coming in at a wrong tangent here with what's being said regarding using .wav files being used for either permanent storage or revisiting a completed project, but please let me explain.

When I was looking for a good recorder to store finished projects, I came across Korg's MR series of 1-bit recorders. Completely new to the idea of dsd, I researched everything about it and ended up getting the now unavailable MR-1000, which I still have. I'm presuming you guys probably know about the dsd format, how it came about and everything.

You see, when I was building my studio, I wanted to know anything and everything about every piece I was getting. No stone unturned. Also, nothing was worse to me than buying just to buy, or redundancy, etc., and I wanted what I felt to be the best for my proposes and uses- no more and no less. I think a lot of people buy things without knowing the potential in the tools they're purchasing. I wanted a very refined music system, with the best quality (I could afford at the time); the most basic, simplistic, flexible and complete (minor contradictions) studio I could put together. I say all this to elaborate the mentality that I absolutely had to put my best foot forward with these goals. I just had to, because I just love music so much.

So when I came across the dsd format and, specifically with Korg's implementation, I was blown away with what it was and how I could use it! Because of the goals I mentioned in the previous paragraph took presedance, workflow took a second seat. It was because I wanted the sound quality Korg's implementation in the MR series gave. I bought it for the converters; I could use it for using future-proofed 1-bit saved stems, files, or finished songs; I could even use it as an expensive, fantastic sounding ipod! Make no mistake, though- it is a mastering-quality, mix-down device that serves one well in that area, as well. In a portable, stereo, even optional battery-operated location recorder!

I do understand to the high-end recording elite guru's; there will be the purist ideals regarding this, that, and the other regarding the dsd format in comparison to high-end pcm (I'm NOT going there). We need ideals to strive for, surely! There are somewhat legitimate conversations to be had there, but for all other intents and purposes, it didn't prevent me from coming to my own conclusions. Using the Korg MR-1000 may not have the best workflow for some (it does have some limitations), but the SOUND did it all for me! This device is just so useful! An absolutely flat-out joy to listen to that doesn't take away what you put into it!