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amit
Approved Merchant
Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 825
Location: New Delhi, India
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 Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| nitecrawler wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | The day I buy whatever is cheap because it's "good enough to fool people" is hopefully the same day I realize I don't really want to be in this line of work anymore. |
Better to buy an instrument that inspires your musical creativity.  |
+1
Buy the instrument for yourself, one that you gel with, that becomes a part of your expression. Does not matter digital or analog if it works for you, that's the real deal.
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Koekepan
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| amit wrote: | +1
Buy the instrument for yourself, one that you gel with, that becomes a part of your expression. Does not matter digital or analog if it works for you, that's the real deal. |
All respect to people picky enough and rich enough to do that. I'm not for a moment suggesting that anyone, or everyone else should not have 420U of rackmounted Moog.
I'm just taking the position that I'm too poor (can we say "poor" in these PC times?) to afford that, and too results-driven to care. If I can keep an audience on their toes with a full soundscape coming from thousands of dollars less in equipment than they would guess (if they would even guess) then that's a win for me.
Furthermore, if I can achieve for four thousand what it takes my competition eight thousand to achieve, then I have more money left over for printing CDs, for doing posters, for driving to gigs, for whatever.
There's nothing whatsoever wrong with being money-savvy, even if it's not as cool as rocking out. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Nothing wrong with it at all, I just object to the notion that the qualification is whether it's good enough for other people. I started doing this for my own enjoyment, not that of an audience. There's an inherent obsessiveness and egocentrism to being a musician. If you're happy with your sound I don't even care with what your audience says. I could probably play most gigs on a Kross with no one the wiser. I'd have a horrible evening though. |
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Broadwave
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1118
Location: Manchester UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Behringer have already released the schematics for their Model D - I'm just giving them a going over and comparing them to the originals.
Apart from some obvious, and perfectly fine transistor substitutes, everything seems very good and true to the original (more so than the SE-02) - The VCOs are the 3046 matched transistor version (1972-1978), which I'm very happy with and the PW divider chain is still there with no trimmer adjustment, so no perfect 50% square waves - Good!. The additional LFO is a nice design, although slightly over engineered for what it is, as are the external Mod sources/Mix. The only real big difference is in the headphone amp, which is completely different, but I can't really see that being a problem.
I'm pretty happy with what I can see - Just get them into the stores ASAP
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Last edited by Broadwave on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Koekepan
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | Nothing wrong with it at all, I just object to the notion that the qualification is whether it's good enough for other people. I started doing this for my own enjoyment, not that of an audience. There's an inherent obsessiveness and egocentrism to being a musician. If you're happy with your sound I don't even care with what your audience says. I could probably play most gigs on a Kross with no one the wiser. I'd have a horrible evening though. |
I guess the difference is who your audience is.
If you're essentially a solipsistic musician, playing by yourself for yourself, then it makes sense that your metric of success would be based in your own satisfaction with your sound, and that could absolutely be affected by what you use.
I'm not solipsistic, and I don't care what tool I use. My metric for success is, do I like the sounds, and do my audience like the sounds? As a pragmatist, if I can get the sounds we all like for less money, I do so. If I felt the need for something like the Moog sound, then based on what Broadwave just posted, I would probably be as happy as a clam using it.
As an illustration of this, my favourite composition software is free download copies of sunvox and virtualANS - which are also very cheap on tablets and phones.
And my next probable purchase, when I get a chance, will be a Waldorf Streichfett. Pretty cheap, quite a sonic range - what's not to love? It's like two volcas, for the price of just over two volcas. |
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psionic311
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| nitecrawler wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | The day I buy whatever is cheap because it's "good enough to fool people" is hopefully the same day I realize I don't really want to be in this line of work anymore. |
Better to buy an instrument that inspires your musical creativity. |
+1
If the action on an instrument is not great, it can kill creativity. Conversely, you can plough through something that delivers sound, but then when you have the privilege to play on a well crafted instrument, that excellent action can truly inspire.
Same with the sound of a synth. I know a whole genre was inspired by the Virus, but when I played one I thought the sounds were overall thin and digital sounding. I guess my synth tastes are a product of those thick cheesy 80s synth sounds.
As with the difference between old school Line 6 technology versus real tube amps and analog pedals, there is a very tangible difference between "real" and "virtual." In isolation, while practicing through headphones or laying down a track, maybe not so much. But in a live situation with competing airwaves from loud guitar amps, rumbling bass, and crashing snare and cymbals, my Moog Minitaur cuts and rumbles whereas sometimes the Kronos doesn't quite cut.
With the right mixing engineer and a bopping audience, does it really matter? Maybe not so much to the drunk dancer, but to the musician just going through the motions and not really "feeling" it, it does make a difference.
I guess it matters where you place more value -- on the audience, or in your own point of view. If the Model D clone delivers objectively, then it seems the only ones who would object would be the purist rather than the pragmatic. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Koekepan wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | Nothing wrong with it at all, I just object to the notion that the qualification is whether it's good enough for other people. I started doing this for my own enjoyment, not that of an audience. There's an inherent obsessiveness and egocentrism to being a musician. If you're happy with your sound I don't even care with what your audience says. I could probably play most gigs on a Kross with no one the wiser. I'd have a horrible evening though. |
I guess the difference is who your audience is.
If you're essentially a solipsistic musician, playing by yourself for yourself, then it makes sense that your metric of success would be based in your own satisfaction with your sound, and that could absolutely be affected by what you use.
I'm not solipsistic, and I don't care what tool I use. My metric for success is, do I like the sounds, and do my audience like the sounds? As a pragmatist, if I can get the sounds we all like for less money, I do so. If I felt the need for something like the Moog sound, then based on what Broadwave just posted, I would probably be as happy as a clam using it.
As an illustration of this, my favourite composition software is free download copies of sunvox and virtualANS - which are also very cheap on tablets and phones.
And my next probable purchase, when I get a chance, will be a Waldorf Streichfett. Pretty cheap, quite a sonic range - what's not to love? It's like two volcas, for the price of just over two volcas. |
I'm not a solipsist, I'm saying just because the audience thinks it's good enough doesn't mean it's good enough for me - I want to have an enjoyable evening too. This has nothing to do with the price of the gear I buy but everything with its sound and other qualities. Like I said, I can probably do most gigs with a Kross and most people wouldn't notice. But I definitely would. I didn't become a musician not because I like "tools" and want to do my job well while investing the minimum amount of money. There's a whole bunch of other jobs that I could do that DON'T require the insane amounts of practice on my instrument, the late hours, the insecurities, the heavy lifting etc.
I became a musician because I have a passion for music (and conversely, sound) strong enough to want to pursue it as a profession in spite of all those things. That's all I meant. I'll buy cheap when I can. I bought a Behringer X18 the other day and it's a great unit. I'll buy a model D at those prices. Not because it's good enough for the audience but because it'll be enjoyable for me to play. Nobody "needs" a Model D at any price, we're not talking about food or water here. |
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| I dint even know what a solipsist was I had to look it up. Really pulling words from nowhere to make a point. |
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Koekepan
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Bertotti wrote: | | I dint even know what a solipsist was I had to look it up. Really pulling words from nowhere to make a point. |
Well, you've unmasked me.
Do you have any idea how many hours I sweat over a dictionary, trying to make points?
It's hard work, dammit! And nobody ever appreciates my efforts. Nobody except you. Finally someone has noticed.
It must be because I bought the cheap dictionary, rather than the massive, leather-bound one printed on parchment paper with the chamois leather bookmark. |
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes that was a doozy of a word! Well done! |
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fcoulter
Senior Member
Joined: 31 Jul 2015
Posts: 271
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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The price of an instrument is not necessary correlated with the musicality of the instrument. A MiniMoog may, or may not, be a better instrument than the Beheringer Model D. The music you create on a Beheringer Model D may, or may not, be better than the music you create on a MiniMoog.
Sorry, but automatically assuming that a musician is a sellout because they can make good music on an instrument that's a few hundred dollars rather than a few thousand it elitist.
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Fred
Korg: Kronos2 88
Other: Tyros 5 76, DGX-650, YPT-320, Fretted Clavichord, Upright Piano, DX-7, SY-99, eMu MPS (last three in attic)
RCM Certificates: Advanced Rudiments |
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nitecrawler
Platinum Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 975
Location: from a mile high to the the AZ desert
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| fcoulter wrote: | The price of an instrument is not necessary correlated with the musicality of the instrument. A MiniMoog may, or may not, be a better instrument than the Beheringer Model D. The music you create on a Beheringer Model D may, or may not, be better than the music you create on a MiniMoog.
Sorry, but automatically assuming that a musician is a sellout because they can make good music on an instrument that's a few hundred dollars rather than a few thousand it elitist. |
+1 Agree. As I said it is better to purchase an instrument that inspires your creativity. Cost has no direct correlation to inspiration. There could be factors that play into a purchasing decision, but whenever possible; I would always purchase the instrument that I feel contributes the most to the musical ends that I wish to pursue.
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Montage M7, Pa5x76, Nautilus, PA3Xle, Oasys 76, Mini-Moog, EMU Audity 2000, Motion Sound KBR 3D amp, Presonus and Reaper DAW W/Tannoy Reveal 501A powered monitors |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| fcoulter wrote: | The price of an instrument is not necessary correlated with the musicality of the instrument. A MiniMoog may, or may not, be a better instrument than the Beheringer Model D. The music you create on a Beheringer Model D may, or may not, be better than the music you create on a MiniMoog.
Sorry, but automatically assuming that a musician is a sellout because they can make good music on an instrument that's a few hundred dollars rather than a few thousand it elitist. |
Great debate and many good points. But just let's get one thing straight: a Minimoog is a better instrument than a Behringer D.
There's no "may, or may not" about it! |
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psionic311
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | fcoulter wrote: | The price of an instrument is not necessary correlated with the musicality of the instrument. A MiniMoog may, or may not, be a better instrument than the Beheringer Model D. The music you create on a Beheringer Model D may, or may not, be better than the music you create on a MiniMoog.
Sorry, but automatically assuming that a musician is a sellout because they can make good music on an instrument that's a few hundred dollars rather than a few thousand it elitist. |
Great debate and many good points. But just let's get one thing straight: a Minimoog is a better instrument than a Behringer D.
There's no "may, or may not" about it! |
Hmm, making an assertion without Exhibit A. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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As said - great debate.
Let's not turn it into a farce by comparing the Behringer D to a Minimoog. Not even trying to make a point of principle here - just - don't get silly!! |
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