Korg Forums

[Derek Cook]

[Kevin Nolan]

As said - as and when the Behringer D is regarded as the most important synthesizer ever made, I'll revise my view on it.


I'm not making any claims on the Minimoog. History is. It's not that by accident the the Minimoog is regarded as perhaps the most infleuntial synth - it's because of the strength of its sound, a recognition of that, and its use in a vast number of historically important tracks, and continuing.


So I'm not making any claim at all - history is.


As it happens I own a Minimoog and have listened to all available "D" and SE02 demos, and there's a world of difference (believe me - there's a WORLD of difference).


And - we could take this from the physical perspective: The Minimoog has a keyboard, while the Behringer D doesn't.

Or - here's another perspective that argues that the Minimoog is better - it's knobs are bigger so there's more precision in sound creation.

Or - ergonomically it's more comfortable to work for longer periods at a Minimoog.


Or - it's build quality (for the new Minimoogs) is better.

Or - it has performance controls like pitch bend, modulation and now even aftertouch.

Or - it actually has more features.


Take any criterion, and the Minimoog is a better instrument. I'm shocked I even have to say it.


'll tell you what the problem is here - you know I'm right but you hate to admit that because I say it with such certainty and that sticks in your gullet (and that's why I say it with such certitude - to prod the forum - get an opinion - play devils advocate - annoy!) - but only when I know I'm right - and when underneeth it - you also agree. And - only when somebody comes along and says there's no real difference between a Behringer D and a Minimoog (or something to that effect)!


There isn't a person reading this or responding to it who actually believe a Behringer D competes in any way with a Minimoog - if they do they need their ears checked or their head examined.

It is my posts that are annoying you - not the point I'm making. We all know what history has told us - through the legacy of music the best instruments are lauded widely though society because, for whatever reason, they are loved more and are therefore musically, superior. There's the odd exception like the Vicount organ that everybody knew was crap - but whether it's a Fender Rhodes, Fender Strat, CS80, Steinway Grand, B3 or Minimoog - they are all regarded as classics because they literally are the best instruments.

We all love them on countless tracks, and, without exception, the best musicians seek out those instruments - every time.


Havent' we been though this debate already in the last year or so



Let's try not to get to calling each other nazi's this time!!!

[amit]

Few points here,
1. Bigger knobs does not make it more precise, it's gives the perception of more precision, it feels easier to dial in, but being true analogue there never really is any true precision amongst fellow peers.
Electronically, if the are identical they'd be as precise as they can be, yet a bit different.


2. History teaches a lot, it also teaches us that nothing permanent and set in stone. For centuries earth was beleived the centre of the universe and adapted by all, then comes cupernicus with his theory and galileo with his proofs on that, getting life imprisonment for heresy, yet what we have now?
There are many other examples. Things are always evolving, and so does history and beliefs along with that.

Can't help but putting in the Floyd line from breathe :
..And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be.

Am not arguing one is better or other as my beliefs are to use what works for you, brings the best out of your craft is the one is better. If it takes the actual Minimoog to do that, so be it, or if it's Behringer that rattles your whiskers that's the best.
Another point, All that matters is if it works with the mix. What all that phatness and goodness going to give you when you gonna HP it. Unless you are just playing the Synth by itself all the time. ..

Btw just signed up for this: https://playasynth.com/
Very niche concept.
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[Broadwave]

@KN - Nobody is disputing the fact that the Minimoog is an historic and iconic instrument, but then again nobody is discussing the size of the knobs, the interface and the fact that the Behringer doesn't come complete with keyboard and mod wheels, because we all know that.

We're talking about how it will SOUND compared to the MM - The current Youtube videos are not a viable indication of what the final product will sound like (there's even some shockingly bad demos of genuine Minimoogs out there!).

I'm not at all bothered about the size of the knobs or that it's not finished in the finest Walnut/Mahogany/Cherry or what the interaction will be like - if it gives me that iconic sound (and there's absolutely no reason come Hell or High Water that it won't) I'll be up for a couple of them.

BTW: Thanks for the feedback on the DIY build, much appreciated.
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[SanderXpander]

Kevin is right that history had proven the value of the Moog D. History also proved the valur of the Korg M1 and the Yamaha DX7. You have to put these things in perspective though. The Moog D had (has) a great sound but part of its appeal was it being the first to achieve a sound like this in such a compact package. Kevin says it's silly to put the Behringer version on (near) equal level. Historically, yes, but sound-wise to me it's silly to pretend that it will sound worse even though it uses the original schematics and identical components.

The original Mini D had a keyboard, yes. But by modern standards it was crap, you couldn't find anyone who would prefer it to a good controller made today except for nostalgic value. Kevin, you yourself wax lyrical about good control and boards like the VAX77. Don't be silly now and call the vintage Moog keyboard a boon. It has one, yes, but it also costs 3k more. You can buy a really really nice controller for that. Which also comes with a sensible pitchbend solution unlike the Moog.

Why can't you accept that technology evolves? You wouldn't want to use an Apple II today, your phone costs a fraction of what that did and is a thousand times faster. That doesn't diminish the historical value of the Apple II.

[Joe Gerardi]

[fcoulter]

[SanderXpander]

I didn't say it's always an improvement. I'm saying WHEN something was introduced has a significant impact on its perceived historical value.

[Derek Cook]

Hi, Kevin

We all hold our opinions, which is fine. No problem with that.

Unless I have missed something, your opinion on this can only be subjective because you will not even consider to compare them, because the Behinger will never compare.

I cannnot give an objective opinion because I have not heard both of them in a blind test. I would be happy to do so to see if there is really a difference in sound,

That is is my opinion on this. As I have said a few times, if a Mini is the only thing that will cut it for you, then that is fine. If the Behinger gives those with less budget similar gratification for a fraction, is that really so bad?

I am filling a PC wth virtual equivalents of what I will never get to own for real because I do not have the budget or space or maintenance time for what are now fourty year old synths. Sure they are not the real thing. I would never claim they are, but if I can use them to good effect, and get 90% of the character, then that is fine for me.

Of course a lottery win, a hangar the size of Jarre's and the ability to afford the best keyboard techs would give me a different view point

Peace, live long and make good music with what you have.
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[Devnor]

There is a certain romanticism to the Moog Mini - the wooden case, the feel of the keyboard and controllers and the history with all those great sounds played by innovative players on old records. I feel it when I play my voyager - it's a experience in itself. It's an integral part of my creative process just being in the moment with the instrument.

I don't need one so I'm not buying. I'm sure it will sound great.
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[Bertotti]

Threads like this make me wish companies would rethink their marketing strategies, rather then promising an affordable model d knock off perhaps a lot of dissent could be avoidable with some simple initial rewording.

[SanderXpander]

[Kevin Nolan]

Derek -

I did compare them. For starters, I compared their physical differences in the post above - the physical attributes of a synthesiser are as important to me as the sound!

That's a big thing to say - but let me demonstrate it. I have it on very good authority (I was told it personally by someone who has worked closely with Vangelis) that Vangelis does not overly rate the basic "sound" of the CS80. In other words - take away all of the performance control and it sounds pretty ordinary. So what turns the CS80 into the best performance analogue synthesizer ever designed is its physical implementation - 5 octave weighted keyboard, polyphonic aftertouch, velocity control, pitch ribbon and so on.

So the comparison between a Minimoog and a Behringer is made and the differences are substantial; from a physical stand point. Surely you get that?


But let me roll back a bit where I thing we'll all probably agree. The Behringer D is a very good sounding synth - as is the SE02. And not only that, I squarely believe and accept that they can be used to great effect to produce world class music when used by good musicians, no matter what the genre.


But Derek - I've heard the Behringer D - I listened to the available demos over quite good play back mechanisms (top end Sennheiser headphones and K&H O300 speakers - to be sure to hear it well - I do that will all demos) and I can assure you it doesn't have the depth of sonic character of a Minimoog. That's not saying it's bad - I'm just responding to the original proposition put out that that they are both basically equal (can't remember what way it was expressed above you you know what I mean).

So Derek I'm not coming at this with an uninformed opinion.


I'll admit I hit these small boxes hard in posts -but I only do that to try to add at least one voice to the idea that, while these small synths are indeed great - they should not be the only thing a company does. The Yamaha CS01 was great (I own three ) - but as part of a range all the way up the CS80. So why can't Behringer release a keyboard version too, or Roland release a physically bigger SE02 with a proper keyboard. That's actually my only argument, and 'beef' with all this new tiny equipment. Give us a performance choice. A bigger Behringer D with the same performance capabilities as a Minimoog would be far better. Using a MIDI controller is never the same.

I own a Minimoog - a new one and boy is it just staggering - but I also own a JU06, JP08 and Reface CS - and love them all - and will likely buy a VP03 and SE02 - but - I wish they would also release bigger versions with full sized keyboard.

Hats off to Korg for having done that with the Odyssey, though it is substantially more expensive and I'd therefore question how well it's selling.


So Derek - I have made valid comparisons. I have physically turned the filter knob of a Minimoog recently and heard others do the same on the Behringer D - and as good as the Behringer D sounds, it does sound quite 'vanilla' by comparison. And I heard many other sound feature differences too.

But to finish off - apart from the size issue, I was not happy when Uli Behringer went onto a pile of forums on the same day as the Behringer D announcement to say they could make a minimoog for a fifth of the price - because they can't. They attacked Moog's price structure, by misleading. There are many young musicians who don't perhaps know how challenging it is for a synth company to survive, and it is highly unlikely that the smaller companies like Moog and DSI - who are doing huge R&D and truly bringing the analogue synth into the 21st century (check the spec of the Sub37 and Pro2 and you'll see what I mean) - are over charging; while they are also producing exquisite quality instruments - yet Behringer literally took Moog's design, applied questionable Chinese-based manufacturing practices to it, and for those reasons is able to sell it for next to nothing. All well and good - but - don't mislead the music user base by lying about Moog's business model while doing it. He's wrong; and if you want top quality you have to pay more. We all know that. But he's making out that the Behringer D is the same as a Minimoog and it's not correct. It's knowing lying and misleading a generation of musicians who deserver better treatment. THAT's the bit about the Behringer D that sticks in my gullet. I really admire how Behringer went about developing the DM12 - take the best of the past, add new innovative features, make it cost effective (but realistically priced) and don't attack the company (Roland) who originated the Juno technology it's based on.

Anyway, I've said more than enough- but Derek - I have compared legitimately - and to re-emphasise - I'm not saying this, or similar small synths are bad - I own them and will buy more - but the Minimoog is surely to be considered separately to the Behringer D, however similar their panel layout is?

[fcoulter]

[Kevin Nolan]

So:

- You're saying The Behringer D is an evolution of the Minimmoog

- You've written off an entire genre of music as crap

- You're dismissing the notion of integrated synthesizers

- You're dismissing the notion of performance as important

- You're falsely saying that multi-keyboard setups are gone (have you checked the keyboard rigs of - like - ANY current band, from any genre?