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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: Aliasing Face-off |
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After reading* about the near zero-aliasing oscillators in Melda's MPowerSynth I decided to do a shootout between my synths. Below are screenshots of spectral analyses displaying information from C5 sawtooths running at 48kHz/24bits. They are listed from worst to best. I'm not distinguishing between saw-up and saw-down waveforms as that's just a matter of polarity and won't effect the results of aliasing.
*referencing the "It just sounds superb..." section of this article: https://www.meldaproduction.com/technology/oscilators
Just so you know, all Kronos waves are from the S/P DIF digital output so it is an absolutely pure no-noise representation of it's oscillators.
Bazille:
Bazille sort of has the worst parts of analog and digital. It's analog noise on top of digital aliasing. What a dirty beast.
HD-1:
This is the stock single wave saw in HD-1. The SawUp-Pro5 waveform probably fared the best surprisingly but it was still nothing to write home about.
Retrologue:
Again mimicking the noise of analog hiss, Retrologue does what it set out to do.
MS-20EX:
Interesting how the MS-20EX engine is mimicking the noise from the analog outputs of the original unit; that noise is only present on key-on, even if the oscillators are turned all the way down in the mixer section.
Zebra:
I honestly expected U-he's Zebra to fare better in this showdown. Maybe there are some oversampling options I'm not aware of.
PolysixEX:
Probably the most perfect example of aliasing on this list.
MOD-7:
For some reason I expected MOD-7 to be the same as AL-1. Thumbed through the manual to discover it's oscillators do not use the same low-aliasing tech.
Alchemy:
Alchemy's sawtooth was the same whether in virtual analog or additive mode.
AL-1:
From the manual, "ultra-low-aliasing oscillators, based on new, proprietary technology". Enough said.
MPowerSynth:
The winner and the most newly developed engine on this list so I guess that isn't too much of a surprise. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro
Last edited by CharlesFerraro on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:04 am; edited 8 times in total |
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burningbusch Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1203 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comparison. I'll have to try my own.
Busch. _________________ Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com |
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voip Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2014 Posts: 3758
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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So, it would appear that from the HD-1 downwards (with downwards being better), the "spurious" components would be inaudible, since they are at least 45dB below the "wanted" signal fundamental frequency and its harmonics, and therefore well below the masking threshold.
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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voip wrote: | So, it would appear that from the HD-1 downwards (with downwards being better), the "spurious" components would be inaudible, since they are at least 45dB below the "wanted" signal fundamental frequency and its harmonics, and therefore well below the masking threshold.
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Well yeah all these synths are pretty top notch. In fact I don't know of any modern synthesis engine where you can hear aliasing right out of the gate. I generally only ever run into audible aliasing when I'm purposely using a decimator effect. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro
Last edited by CharlesFerraro on Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SanderXpander Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well these are sort of "ideal" conditions. Pitch modulation or fx use can aggravate the artifacts significantly. |
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danatkorg Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 4204 Location: California, USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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With both the HD-1 and the AL-1, make sure that Drive is bypassed (not just set to 0). _________________ Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:02 am Post subject: |
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danatkorg wrote: | With both the HD-1 and the AL-1, make sure that Drive is bypassed (not just set to 0). |
Yes I was keen on that. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro |
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BobTheDog Platinum Member
Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 1535
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enigmahack Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Aug 2009 Posts: 727 Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA (Eh?)
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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There's a LOT of very cool stuff happening in there. The biggest thing I've wanted for a while was to be able to draw my own waveforms. That's awesome!
So when can we get this in the Kronos? _________________ Korg Kronos 88 2, Korg Kronos 73, Kurzweil K2600S
Sound developer, custom sound designer and trainer/Kronos support - www.audora.ca for details! |
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BobTheDog Platinum Member
Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 1535
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I downloaded it to try it out but the installer on mac was an executable which wanted my password. So I just deleted it. |
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CharlesFerraro Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:27 am Post subject: |
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enigmahack wrote: | There's a LOT of very cool stuff happening in there. The biggest thing I've wanted for a while was to be able to draw my own waveforms. That's awesome!
So when can we get this in the Kronos? |
MPowerSynth probably has the best graphical interface for drawing your own waveforms that I know of... but plenty of other synths will allow you to do the same thing including U-He's Zebra and Bazille synthesizers. You can even get freeware in the form of Zebralette for Zebra. Then there's Beatzille or BazilleCM which are dirt cheap ($5) condensed versions of Bazille from Beat magazine and Computer Music magazine respectively. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro |
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danatkorg Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005 Posts: 4204 Location: California, USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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BobTheDog wrote: | I downloaded it to try it out but the installer on mac was an executable which wanted my password. So I just deleted it. |
Most if not all installers require an admin password; this is required by the system, not the installer per se. _________________ Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
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SeedyLee Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 1367 Location: Perth, Australia
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for conducting this analysis, was really interesting to see the results. _________________ Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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BobTheDog Platinum Member
Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 1535
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: |
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danatkorg wrote: | BobTheDog wrote: | I downloaded it to try it out but the installer on mac was an executable which wanted my password. So I just deleted it. |
Most if not all installers require an admin password; this is required by the system, not the installer per se. |
I don't mind giving a .pkg mac installer my password, give a .app (executable) installer your password and you are mad.
Edit some more details:
A .pkg file when it asks for your password doesn't enable the developer access to the password, it is secure.
A .app file is the actual developer asking for your password, at this point the password can be saved away, sent over the internet or whatever they want to do with it, even change it. |
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Joe Gerardi Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2012 Posts: 534 Location: Savannah, GA
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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CharlesFerraro wrote: | In fact I don't know of any modern synthesis engine where you can hear aliasing right out of the gate. |
Casio XW-P1. You can easily hear aliasing as low as the octave above Middle C. Between that and the "clacky" keyboard, it was the reason I quickly got rid of mine.
..Joe _________________ Current setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88 Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Roland M-GS64, Alesis QSR, Yamaha KX88 & KX76, Roland Super-JX, Juno-Stage, Kawai K4, Kawai K1II. |
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