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spaceman3
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Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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 Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: New chineese synths |
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I didnt know exactly where i should have posted this subject.
I hope it doesnt sound political or something.
Recently, on this forum the subject of chinese made synths came up.
That is to say that a member of this forum tried to make me look evil because i supported BEHRINGERS new chinese made synths.
I have tried to make sure my synths, and other electronics came from japan so i would not feel the guilt of buying chinese stuff.
Eventually i gave up on trying to avoid things from china.
It seems all electronics have something made in china inside.
Even things made in other countrys use chinese parts in some form or other.
So if one was to take a morel stand against china product, ( however it was produced) , could not have any modern electronic devices at all.
Because if one is against chinese electronics
one would have to take a stand against anything with even one chinese made part inside.
We cannot have it both ways.
Its all or nothing.
There are alot of poor people that cannot afford USA made stuff,or other countrys product, not just electronics.
If the poor (here in USA) try to live buying expensive non china made products like shoes, clothes, and so on, they would starve.
So the question is, where does one draw the line?
The answer for me is, you cannot.
So if you buy chinese stuff and you feel guilt, thats normal, but dont beat yourself up over it.
Your not the devil if you buy a synthesizer made in china.
Last edited by spaceman3 on Mon May 08, 2017 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ksynth
Platinum Member
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 1225
Location: Northern California, USA
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
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What Behringer are doing is a rather unique situation. They have their own purpose built factory and they don't depend on OEM suppliers to deliver components. They pretty much do it all in house. Everything from pulping their own paper for Speaker cones to printing their own circuit boards.
This gives them a serious completive edge, and it allows them to directly control quality from every single aspect of the manufacturing process. Their factory is not called Behringer City for nothing. It's a huge operation. The Behringer of the old 90's and dodgy gear is long gone.
This is why Behringer can produce an Analog Synth at realistic prices.
As for “Made in China” on everything else. This is almost impossible to avoid, and to be quite honest with you, there's no reason to avoid it either. China is the largest manufacture in the world and they produce some of the best products on the planet too.
People need jobs, and how much someone gets paid to do that work is always something that should be monitored by the people themselves no matter what country in the world you live in.
Don't forget, we live in a world where 1% of the population have more wealth than the remaining 99% combined, and it will remain that way so long as people keep on voting for politicians and not voting for changing the system.
I'd imagine someone working in walmart America finds it just as hard to make ends meet as someone working in Foxcon China building iPhones.
Regards
Sharp.
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Joe Gerardi
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 534
Location: Savannah, GA
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, not getting the issue. What's wrong with buying Chinese-made? That it takes away from American jobs? Well, so what? We're a Capitalist society. That's the fundamental definition of Capitalism. To NOT buy would be un-American. Hell, where does everyone think iPhones are made? there is no "moral" responsibility there- it's business, and in business, the lowest-priced seller of a similar product wins.
Unless you're writing about quality. Then blame the company selling it. Chinese factories will make whatever you want, at whatever level of quality you want. If the quality it crap, that's what the vendor asked for, and what the Chinese made.
..Joe
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Current setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88 Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Roland M-GS64, Alesis QSR, Yamaha KX88 & KX76, Roland Super-JX, Juno-Stage, Kawai K4, Kawai K1II. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with what is said above.
I missed the post that my friend, spacemen, referred to. Typically, I jump in with a few words.
At this very late stage of corporate capitalism, its silly and futile to complain
about " US jobs going overseas".
We have been a global economy with the foundation set back in the 80's by various political leaders here in the US. The time to squawk and complain and bicker was back then.
Then technology and information/network servers made huge advances in the 90's. I worked for such a company, Sun Microsystems, that built the servers for 1000's of large US corps that desired a global presence.
So that fact was another pivotal turning point in routing traditional US jobs overseas, to Asia, etc.
I am sympathetic to folks not finding good paying jobs. Higher education is the solution and obtaining valuable sought after skills is the answer. easy to say, and hard to do. But we all have to face challenges and improve our work skills.
I think some folks should look at the big picture and understand the above history. Don't listen to self serving politicians trying to rile you up.
Thats a big waste of your valuable time. No one can turn back the clock
30 years. We have to deal with reality and work smart.
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amit
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Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 825
Location: New Delhi, India
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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100% Agree with what joe, spaceman3 and sharp says.
You'd be amazed how many name brands behringer (Music Group) now owns or produces for.
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spaceman3
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Everyones response to this subject makes me feel better.
Its good to know that forum members, and the creator of the forum have a complete understanding of this subject.
Thank you very much for your responses.
It really did make my day.
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Bertotti
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 3384
Location: Middle of nowhere
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I always support my local economy first and countries economy second, the decision in the end is still balanced against cost. Significant savings in an imported product will usually win me over as long as quality is there. I think everyone should support their country first if within reason financially. Of course there are other factors but that's is a completely different topic. |
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Kevin Nolan
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | W
This is why Behringer can produce an Analog Synth at realistic prices.
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Interesting hypothesis on Behringer you put forward there Sharp. It won't surprise you to read that I see it very differently.
A minimoog for $4000 is a realistic price. The difference is in the R&D - the investment in ideas - not in 'parts' and 'processes'
Behringer steal other companies ideas - that's why they can make junk synthesisers at unrealistic prices (coupled to the exploitation of Chinese workers - not to blame Behringer exclusively on that - we're all culpable on that one. ) |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kevin.
Behringer (Music Group) owns many leading music companies.
Midas
Lake
TC Helicon
TC Electronics
Tannoy
Applied Technopolis
Turbo Sound
Euro Com
Teknik.
And more.....
http://www.music-group.com/brands?active=Brands
| Quote: | | Behringer steal other companies ideas - that's why they can make junk synthesisers at unrealistic price |
Deepmind 12 was designed in the UK by their Midas division.
Sorry mate but you are way out of touch on this one. As I said in my original post, this is not the 90's.
Regards
Sharp.
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spaceman3
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Sharp wrote: | W
This is why Behringer can produce an Analog Synth at realistic prices.
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Interesting hypothesis on Behringer you put forward there Sharp. It won't surprise you to read that I see it very differently.
A minimoog for $4000 is a realistic price. The difference is in the R&D - the investment in ideas - not in 'parts' and 'processes'
Behringer steal other companies ideas - that's why they can make junk synthesisers at unrealistic prices (coupled to the exploitation of Chinese workers - not to blame Behringer exclusively on that - we're all culpable on that one. ) |
About 50 years of R&D havent given much new development to the MOOGS.
I havent seen any new or cutting edge ideals added to MOOG's.
Maybe aftertouch and midi, and that was years ago.
Still the same waveforms.
MOOG isnt doing any real R&D.
Just reissuing old model D tech.
Darn junky things still break down left and right.
BEHRINGER has a good thing going with the DEEPMIND synths.
I was a bit dissapointed with BEHRINGER when they decided to copy a MOOG.
They have a hit with DEEPMIND.
Why go backwards and copy a MOOG?
I know BEHRINGER has the legal right to do it, just as you see alot of FENDER STRAT copys or GIBSON LESS PAUL copys.
But It just seems like a lazy way.
Then again, Behringer knows alot of people do not want to pay thousands of dollars for a MOOG.
Behringers $400 dollar price tag sheds light on the high price of a MOOG.
If someone feels like a MINIMOOG is worth the price, then it is.
If someone feels like it isnt worth the price, then it isnt.
I cant help but think if KORG KRONOS was an american made synth, from an american company, it would cost 10 thousand dollars, or more,because the company would have that smug
oooh we must be great cause we make it in america, and are employees are well paid and our synths cost more.
And are employees get foot massages.
Therefore our synth is superior.
As anyone who reads this can see, there is alot of hype in the mythology of MOOG and some other analogue synth makers.
The morel high ground, where they are made, employees that feel loved.
None of that should determine how great a synth is, or its worth.
Just the way i see it.
Others may see it different, and thats cool. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp wrote: | Hi Kevin.
Behringer (Music Group) owns many leading music companies.
Midas
Lake
TC Helicon
TC Electronics
Tannoy
Applied Technopolis
Turbo Sound
Euro Com
Teknik.
And more.....
http://www.music-group.com/brands?active=Brands
| Quote: | | Behringer steal other companies ideas - that's why they can make junk synthesisers at unrealistic price |
Deepmind 12 was designed in the UK by their Midas division.
Sorry mate but you are way out of touch on this one. As I said in my original post, this is not the 90's.
Regards
Sharp. |
Behringer bought those companies. Anything they've developed has been stolen.
Might I remind you that the architecture of the DM12 is that of the Juno 106?
This isn't even a point worth debating - check out any forum, today, and you'll find scathing dislike for Behringer because of their policy of theft. Just because they can buy other companies does not make them innovative. but I accept, sadly, that they have even more droves of followers now that they are powerful enough to mop up the competition and charge nothing though dubious manufacturing processes.
But what I find most deplorable, and sad, is Uri Behringer's recent attack on Moog online - as if they were nothing but an overcharging inconvenience in synthesis; and at the exact same time literally lifting the design of their iconic invention. In 2017! Just how low can one get. What I find sad about it is the droves of gullible people online lapping up Behringer's hype. If he had his way, he'd irradiate all of the competition.
And I find that sad because, as indicated in my post above, all of the innovation that came from Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Moog, Sequential, Obeheim - is forgotten by the droves of shallow an gullible followers they accumulate purely based on low cost and nothing else. It's a clear indicator that mass movement, however dumb, can occur whenever there's a race to the bottom - Behringer will surely sell loads of 'D's by musicians without the ears to tell the difference between it and a Model D.
I used to think synthesists were into innovation, creativity, the future - and willing to engage all that that demands - but of late we're turned into a class of brainless "musicians" - in double quotes - who don't give a damn about such attributes any more. The cost of everything and value of nothing comes to mind.
All of that well and good, but in the mean time the damage being done by Behringer is the attack on real, earnest and genuine companies willing to push the envelope; while vultures like this reap the rewards. One can only imagine a world where only Behringer release music technology (and the way it's going we're not far from it). |
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DennyC
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 938
Location: Tucson, Az
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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I basically agree with Sharp in general. I didn't realize that "Music Group"
owned all these companies. But I don't want to digress into political and totalitarian ideologies and their political and economic impact on democratic economic systems.
For me, it would be great to stick to music. If Behringer makes an interesting product and a well priced one, super. Also, since Sharp made a point about "Music Group" owning TC Helicon, I have a voice live rack and it is a great unit. Also having owned at least 7 or 8 other Korg boards, as well as a couple of Kronos'...need I say I love the sound of Korg stuff. So, yes it would be possible to say I am biased toward the Korg sound but I believe that Korg has also partnered with TC Helicon for harmonizing functions on some of the arranger products. All for it.
So. to "spaceman 3" , if you like the DM12 sound, just buy it "guilt free". I think it is a cool sounding keyboard.
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Last edited by DennyC on Wed May 10, 2017 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nitecrawler
Platinum Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 975
Location: from a mile high to the the AZ desert
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="spaceman3"][quote="Kevin Nolan"] | Sharp wrote: | W
BEHRINGER has a good thing going with the DEEPMIND synths.
I was a bit dissapointed with BEHRINGER when they decided to copy a MOOG.
They have a hit with DEEPMIND.
Why go backwards and copy a MOOG?
I know BEHRINGER has the legal right to do it, just as you see alot of FENDER STRAT copys or GIBSON LESS PAUL copys.
But It just seems like a lazy way.
Then again, Behringer knows alot of people do not want to pay thousands of dollars for a MOOG.
Behringers $400 dollar price tag sheds light on the high price of a MOOG.
If someone feels like a MINIMOOG is worth the price, then it is.
If someone feels like it isnt worth the price, then it isnt.
I cant help but think if KORG KRONOS was an american made synth, from an american company, it would cost 10 thousand dollars, or more,because the company would have that smug
oooh we must be great cause we make it in america, and are employees are well paid and our synths cost more.
And are employees get foot massages.
Therefore our synth is superior.
As anyone who reads this can see, there is alot of hype in the mythology of MOOG and some other analogue synth makers.
The morel high ground, where they are made, employees that feel loved.
None of that should determine how great a synth is, or its worth.
Just the way i see it.
Others may see it different, and thats cool. |
Higher cost does not necessarily equate with better quality. Being built in America does not necessarily equate with better quality as well.
Years back, my impression of Behringer was not a good one. That impression has changed as their group of companys have produced quality products over the years. I own and use Tannoy and T. C. Helicon products today with confidence. Their business model through their manufacturing facilities in China are sound. They are really controlling the process. I just bought two XM8500 mics built by Behringer for $19.00 each and they sound perfectly fine for what they are supposed to do. There is no reason to assume that they would fail in developing a quality mini-moog D replica. Concurrently, we have not really heard their "D" product. So, it is difficult to judge that they have a winner on their hands yet. Maybe we should let the dust settle before we get all twisted up in these conversations about good and bad.
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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=807494
Montage M7, Pa5x76, Nautilus, PA3Xle, Oasys 76, Mini-Moog, EMU Audity 2000, Motion Sound KBR 3D amp, Presonus and Reaper DAW W/Tannoy Reveal 501A powered monitors |
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spaceman3
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Sharp wrote: | Hi Kevin.
Behringer (Music Group) owns many leading music companies.
Midas
Lake
TC Helicon
TC Electronics
Tannoy
Applied Technopolis
Turbo Sound
Euro Com
Teknik.
And more.....
http://www.music-group.com/brands?active=Brands
| Quote: | | Behringer steal other companies ideas - that's why they can make junk synthesisers at unrealistic price |
Deepmind 12 was designed in the UK by their Midas division.
Sorry mate but you are way out of touch on this one. As I said in my original post, this is not the 90's.
Regards
Sharp. |
Behringer bought those companies. Anything they've developed has been stolen.
Might I remind you that the architecture of the DM12 is that of the Juno 106?
This isn't even a point worth debating - check out any forum, today, and you'll find scathing dislike for Behringer because of their policy of theft. Just because they can buy other companies does not make them innovative. but I accept, sadly, that they have even more droves of followers now that they are powerful enough to mop up the competition and charge nothing though dubious manufacturing processes.
But what I find most deplorable, and sad, is Uri Behringer's recent attack on Moog online - as if they were nothing but an overcharging inconvenience in synthesis; and at the exact same time literally lifting the design of their iconic invention. In 2017! Just how low can one get. What I find sad about it is the droves of gullible people online lapping up Behringer's hype. If he had his way, he'd irradiate all of the competition.
And I find that sad because, as indicated in my post above, all of the innovation that came from Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Moog, Sequential, Obeheim - is forgotten by the droves of shallow an gullible followers they accumulate purely based on low cost and nothing else. It's a clear indicator that mass movement, however dumb, can occur whenever there's a race to the bottom - Behringer will surely sell loads of 'D's by musicians without the ears to tell the difference between it and a Model D.
I used to think synthesists were into innovation, creativity, the future - and willing to engage all that that demands - but of late we're turned into a class of brainless "musicians" - in double quotes - who don't give a damn about such attributes any more. The cost of everything and value of nothing comes to mind.
All of that well and good, but in the mean time the damage being done by Behringer is the attack on real, earnest and genuine companies willing to push the envelope; while vultures like this reap the rewards. One can only imagine a world where only Behringer release music technology (and the way it's going we're not far from it). |
I have read many of your post's.
Its one thing to say you dont like this synth companys synth's, or that companys synth's.
Its one thing to talk negative about a company, i get that. but
When someone doesnt agree with you, you start saying everyone is stupid, or gullible, or brain dead or something
Your words give you away, and they show your lack of understanding. |
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