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Problem with K-Sounds Epic Piano

 
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K is for Kronos
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Joined: 10 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Problem with K-Sounds Epic Piano Reply with quote

I am wondering if any K - Sounds Epic Piano could confirm something for me?
When I play notes in the octave above middle C, it sounds to my ears anyway, as if the notes are almost out of tune. At first I thought it sounded as though a slight chorus effect was added, but now I believe that some of this may have been an out of tune that is built into the sample. Do others hear this? I know that it sounds thin in upper octaves, but this clearly sounds sour. It has gotten so that they are not usable for me. I am certainly disappointed as the mid and low end are very satisfying.

Any advice or help would be welcomed.

Kind Regards,

Bill
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benny ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally don't have the Epic Grand installed on my Kronos but I installed it on a friend's Kronos and liked it very much. One of my favs pianos for the Kronos. Maybe delete the piano and reinstall would be the only thing I could recommend. Make sure you keep the codes for reinstall.
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mikeyd
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Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K Sounds has a website ( that's if you didn't know and bought it on the Korg site). Might want to send them an email for help but I'd try what benny said first.

https://ksounds.com/
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K is for Kronos
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replies. I may try a clean install. I need to remember how to ensure that I delete all files associated with the first instillation. I hadn't contacted K Sounds yet as I was hoping to first confirm that other user were hearing what I was hearing.

Thanks,

Bill
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you can provide an example?
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Moonglow



Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The behavior you report is unusual. The Epic Grand has been my "go-to" piano in my Kronos for several years, and one of the main features I enjoy is that it is very playable across the entire range of the keyboard. I would definitely try a clean install.

The owner was very helpful and answered all of of my pre- and post-purchase questions, so I wouldn't hesitate to contact him if you get stuck.
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K is for Kronos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:
Maybe you can provide an example?


Hi Sharp,

I am not sure if you can hear what I am hearing on these Sound Cloud Wav. files, but here it goes.





Bill
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K is for Kronos
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moonglow wrote:
The behavior you report is unusual. The Epic Grand has been my "go-to" piano in my Kronos for several years, and one of the main features I enjoy is that it is very playable across the entire range of the keyboard. I would definitely try a clean install.

The owner was very helpful and answered all of of my pre- and post-purchase questions, so I wouldn't hesitate to contact him if you get stuck.


Hey Chris,

Good to hear from you. We have chatted about this on a KC PM thread. Yeah it is unusual. I thought at first it was an effect, but I am wondering if is an issue in the sample itself? Maybe it is thinness we discussed in the upper octave that is bothering my ear.

I guess I need to try a new install, but not sure easiest way to make sure I delete all evidence on my HD of the the first install. I guess I should also download the file again from the Korg shop, but not sure how that works.

I think I will have to contact the K-Sound folks for help.

Thanks again,

Bill
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arnon78



Joined: 15 Dec 2013
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Location: Israel

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bill
It's happening to me too (the detune) and it makes me wondering am I crazy or all the people that have it and like it hear something different? Please update about your solution
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Moonglow



Joined: 10 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bill,

What is the specific program number/name you are talking about? I only use "000 Epic Grand SW2" (when running in stereo) or "017 Epic Grand Mono SW2" (when running in mono) and they don't sound thin and phasey/choursey, like the examples you posted. I haven't used any of the other programs because quite frankly they don't sound nearly as good to my ears! It could be that you are referencing a program I did not like for the very same issue. I have not played any Epic Grand programs other than 000 and 017 in years, so if it is a different program I will need to give it a fresh listen in order to provide more accurate feedback. I don't have my Kronos set up at the moment (loaded in the truck), but when I get to my gig on Saturday I will be happy to check it out.
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K is for Kronos
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

The example I posted was the "000 Epic Grabd SW2" stereo version. This is about the only program I use, or on occasion I use 001. I would appreciate you checking on Saturday to see if you can duplicate the sound heard on the audio I posted. It seems that at least one other user is experiencing something similar.

arnon78,

If I come to any solutions I will post them here.

Bill
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Moonglow



Joined: 10 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill,

I was certain it would be the case that you were using a different program, but after reading your reply I couldn’t take it anymore so I set up my Kronos in the garage to check it out. Plus I wanted to conduct the “experiment” in a more controlled environment than the night club where I will be playing on Saturday. So basically I listened to your sound examples several times and then using the same headphones immediately went out to the garage to play the Epic Grand. I played roughly the same lines you played, in the same registers, and focused on the chorus artifact and overall tone thinness.

It looks like I’m going to have to “eat some crow” here, Bill. Up until now, my main issue with the upper octaves of the Epic Grand was that I felt they were of slightly lower volume in comparison to the other registers. But I did hear the chorus effect evidenced in your sound examples, it sounded pretty much the same. I thought your recordings sounded a little (25-30%) thinner but I'm not sure if this could be a function of hearing a recording vs. “live.”

After doing the above test, I played the Berlin and German grands in the Kronos, and later the “Bright Grand” (large sample) in my Nord Stage (classic), followed by the “Full Grand” program in my Integra-7. The Integra-7 was the best in terms of not hearing any type of chorusy effect in those registers, although I thought I heard a little on a couple of notes in the Berlin/German grands, and the Nord Stage. But the Epic Grand was definitely the worst in exhibiting this artifact, both in terms of “depth” of the chorus and across the widest range of notes in those registers. Interestingly, I noticed it seemed to be more/less prominent depending on certain combinations of notes. I did hear more of this type of artifact in the mid-range of the other pianos…which is where the Epic Grand shines, IMO.

This discussion has stimulated curiosity as to what this artifact is. Is it indeed a subtle chorus effect that was added to fatten-up the upper registers? An element inherent to the piano that was sampled? The result of “stretching” samples? Using damper resonance as a separate sample? Microphone placement? Perhaps those with more experience with this sort of thing will chime in.

I remember having a few “buzzy” or “metallic” sounding notes in my GEM RP-X module back in the day, and I did not favor the midrange of the famed “triple-strike” sample in my Kurzwei K2600X. Seems we all have a unique distribution of personal tolerances in terms of factors that adversely resonate with us when playing digital pianos.

As mentioned earlier, I’ve been using the Epic Grand for years and have always found it to be extremely playable. I have never noticed this artifact when playing in my classic rock band, and will continue to use it. Perhaps if I played in a more exposed setting it would bug me, not sure. I do sincerely apologize if my favorable opinion of the Epic Grand contributed to you making a regretful purchase decision.

Chris
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K is for Kronos
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chirs,

First let me say that I am very appreciative that you took the time and effort to assist me in confirming what I was hearing.

I must say that while I am disappointed that this appears to be an flaw that is part of the sample and not something that occurred during installation, I am relieved to know that I am not alone in my discovery.

I completely agree that the middle range and bass range of the Epic Piano were big improvements for me over the stock German and Japanese Grands in the Kronos. I have not purchased the Berlin, but imagine that it would also not be a drastic improvement in the middle registers.

In the past I had gigged with the Kronos and Casio Px-5s and had settled on using the Casio as my base piano for live work. While it is certainly not the greatest and most realistic piano sample, the Casio's touch to sound connection and ability to sit well in the live setting, made it my go to piano for live work.

However, due to desiring to not drag as much gear to rehearsals, I opted to try and use the Kronos as the sole sound source. I left an old Yamaha digital piano
at the practice space to act as an 88 controller and thru Midi connected the Kronos to use for all sounds. As my Kronos is the 61 key model, I found that as I auditioned the sounds of the Epic Piano, I played more in the upper registers. Especially when trying out blues licks and fills. It was immediate to me that the Epic piano sounded thin and had that chorus like effect in the top octaves.

I imagine that in a live setting that the audience might never notice what I am hearing, but I find that I can not play in that range without it effecting me on some psychological level LOL.

Chris, I certainly do not blame you for leading me to this purchase. I heard the samples and discovered that you and others had found it a good solution for the weak middle range in the Kronos pianos. I probably will remove it from my hard drive and make due with some mods to the German Grand. Perhaps at some point I will explore another company's acoustic piano (ie . Yamaha type grand), but for now I will keep on working with the stock pianos.

Thanks again for your feedback and willingness to help me out. It is what makes this forum and the KC forum such as wonderful place to hang.

Bill
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bpoodoo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2019
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Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

K is for Kronos wrote:
I am wondering if any K - Sounds Epic Piano could confirm something for me?
When I play notes in the octave above middle C, it sounds to my ears anyway, as if the notes are almost out of tune. At first I thought it sounded as though a slight chorus effect was added, but now I believe that some of this may have been an out of tune that is built into the sample. Do others hear this?


Moonglow wrote:
I did hear the chorus effect evidenced in your sound examples, it sounded pretty much the same.

This discussion has stimulated curiosity as to what this artifact is. Is it indeed a subtle chorus effect that was added to fatten-up the upper registers? An element inherent to the piano that was sampled? The result of “stretching” samples? Using damper resonance as a separate sample? Microphone placement? Perhaps those with more experience with this sort of thing will chime in.

Chris


I just bought Epic Piano for Triton, which I believe is based on the same basic samples (though constrained to fit into 96 Mb of sample memory). I do hear the slight detuning to varying degrees in some notes, but to me that is just a piano being a piano. If it were not there, it would not sound like a real piano.

Each note on a real grand piano has 1, 2, or 3 strings. Each note in the octave above middle C is typically comprised of 3 strings (sometimes 2). Even for a skilled piano tuner, it is impossible to tune these strings exactly the same frequency (in Hertz). When they are off in frequency, it produces a beat frequency with a period of 1 divided by the difference in frequencies.

I believe the chorus effect mentioned is actually this beat frequency, included in the sample as-recorded. We hear it as a slowly changing pitch and amplitude variation, like an LFO, corresponding to the constructive and deconstructive mixing of those waves of slightly different frequencies.

For example, if the frequency difference between 2 strings is 1 Hz (e.g. 880Hz and 879Hz), we would hear rise and fall variations in of pitch/amplitude with a period of 1 second. If 0.5 Hz (e.g. 880.25Hz and 879.75Hz), we would hear rise and fall variations in of pitch/amplitude with a period of 2 seconds.

To me, a little bit of detuning in each note is realistic. More detuning should be expected as you go up in octaves because it's harder to tune the strings at higher frequencies to be close to the same frequency.

Certainly what makes a good piano sound is very subjective. That's why there are so many different choices out there for sampled pianos. None of them will sound perfect. The newest, latest and greatest sampled piano is only guaranteed to be different, but not necessarily better.

It's good to have options that we can preview, evaluate, and choose what sounds best to our ear. And as noted here and in another threads, in your search for the perfect piano, you may come full circle and find that you prefer the built-in factory pianos.

Moonglow wrote:
Up until now, my main issue with the upper octaves of the Epic Grand was that I felt they were of slightly lower volume in comparison to the other registers.
Chris


I noticed this too. I was able to "fix it" to my satisfaction by increasing the values of these parameters in the piano programs:
Edit Filter>Filter[1,2] Mod>Keyboard Track>Ramp High
Edit Amp>Amp[1,2] Mod>Keyboard Track>Ramp High

An alternative (or complementary) adjustment is edit the reverb effect to use Source=NoteNumber to provide more reverb for the higher registers.
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