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Multi keys live questions help needed please

 
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drb32856
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Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Multi keys live questions help needed please Reply with quote

I just came across this video that shows how to set up the Kronos combi and control a 2nd sound source by midi. I'm wondering if this is the best way to do this? Not sure if a better way exists, but i have struggled with making this work the way i want it too. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64JNQJbMOgk

Also how do I assign all CX3 sounds to the extra set of outs to send to my new Ventilator 2 pedal?

And finally how to pass organ tones from the other boards into the vent in a way that other sounds played on another board are not effected? Note my onstage mixer (X-Air XR12) has no effect send/return as such for external effects. It does have 2 Aux outs that I plan to use to go into the Vent and out from there into unused channels 11 and 12 on the mixer.
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Korg Kronos 61 Korg Karma Korg Trinity+ DSI Rev 2 16 Casio MZ-X500 61-KEY Roland SH201 Roland FA-06 Ensoniq ESQ1 Alesis 7.1 Alesis Ion Alesis S4 and S4+ Emu B3 mod Yamaha MM6
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Multi keys live questions help needed please Reply with quote

drb32856 wrote:

I just came across this video that shows how to set up the Kronos combi and control a 2nd sound source by midi. I'm wondering if this is the best way to do this? Not sure if a better way exists, but i have struggled with making this work the way i want it too. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64JNQJbMOgk



My Kronos 61 is my top tier master controller, in Set List mode. It's MIDI'd to my Integra and a 61-key MIDI keyboard split by channels. I press my song on the K, and everyone else in the rig automatically chooses their matching sounds.

The way in the video is effective if you know ahead of time what the bank and program numbers are, but I don't create my combi's using that approach. I audition by sound families and use layers and zones. Here's the concept:

1) Operate at Kronos Set List level as master
- enable program change in Kronos Global/MIDI/MIDI tab
- on Integra, press Menu button, scroll to MIDI tab
-- match SS control channel to Kronos Global MIDI channel
-- enable Rx program change and bank select

- now, selecting Set List slot also calls up matching Studio Set
- edit Set List slot to make font max size and put song title in slot's comment
- on Integra match Studio Set name to one used in corresponding set list slot

2) Kronos Combi structure matches an Integra 7 Studio Set structure
- 16 MIDI channels
- 16 timbres in a combi, 16 parts in a studio set
- level, channel, pan, keyboard ranges set to matching zones on both

3) make combi my main, use Integra for layering and special needs (SN instr)
- make new combi on K, then set new Set List slot to new combi; save Set List mode
- duplicate combi on Integra; Integra's Tone Finder is excellent
- first find basic instrument match on Integra, then press Part View button then scroll right to Offset tab to tweak instrument closer to what you need
- Integra studio sets mirror the Kronos combis/set list slot, channel for channel, sound for sound, making the Roland my backup

4) create, update, and backup often
- on Kronos, press REC/Write button for quick saves in any mode
- on Integra, press Shift+Write to update the Studio Set
- save tweaks daily, save all (DISK mode) on Kronos twice a month

Hope this gives you some ideas on different approaches. His way requires knowing and punching in bank and program numbers. This works fine for some people.

I update sounds so often I just audition, tweak, and save as I go. I don't look at program numbers, but listen to types -- category select in combi mixer view, Tone Finder on Integra. Updating and saving is quick and easy on both.

Thanks for showing that video. I think I'm going to adopt that second part where he uses the Kronos External mode #11 to use the sliders to control Integra part levels.
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drb32856
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Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Multi keys live questions help needed please Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
drb32856 wrote:

I just came across this video that shows how to set up the Kronos combi and control a 2nd sound source by midi. I'm wondering if this is the best way to do this? Not sure if a better way exists, but i have struggled with making this work the way i want it too. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64JNQJbMOgk



My Kronos 61 is my top tier master controller, in Set List mode. It's MIDI'd to my Integra and a 61-key MIDI keyboard split by channels. I press my song on the K, and everyone else in the rig automatically chooses their matching sounds.

The way in the video is effective if you know ahead of time what the bank and program numbers are, but I don't create my combi's using that approach. I audition by sound families and use layers and zones. Here's the concept:

1) Operate at Kronos Set List level as master
- enable program change in Kronos Global/MIDI/MIDI tab
- on Integra, press Menu button, scroll to MIDI tab
-- match SS control channel to Kronos Global MIDI channel
-- enable Rx program change and bank select

- now, selecting Set List slot also calls up matching Studio Set
- edit Set List slot to make font max size and put song title in slot's comment
- on Integra match Studio Set name to one used in corresponding set list slot

2) Kronos Combi structure matches an Integra 7 Studio Set structure
- 16 MIDI channels
- 16 timbres in a combi, 16 parts in a studio set
- level, channel, pan, keyboard ranges set to matching zones on both

3) make combi my main, use Integra for layering and special needs (SN instr)
- make new combi on K, then set new Set List slot to new combi; save Set List mode
- duplicate combi on Integra; Integra's Tone Finder is excellent
- first find basic instrument match on Integra, then press Part View button then scroll right to Offset tab to tweak instrument closer to what you need
- Integra studio sets mirror the Kronos combis/set list slot, channel for channel, sound for sound, making the Roland my backup

4) create, update, and backup often
- on Kronos, press REC/Write button for quick saves in any mode
- on Integra, press Shift+Write to update the Studio Set
- save tweaks daily, save all (DISK mode) on Kronos twice a month

Hope this gives you some ideas on different approaches. His way requires knowing and punching in bank and program numbers. This works fine for some people.

I update sounds so often I just audition, tweak, and save as I go. I don't look at program numbers, but listen to types -- category select in combi mixer view, Tone Finder on Integra. Updating and saving is quick and easy on both.

Thanks for showing that video. I think I'm going to adopt that second part where he uses the Kronos External mode #11 to use the sliders to control Integra part levels.


Wow, thank you for your method. I have had a real hard time with having the control I want between 2 or more boards. I know your using an Integra but if you were using a board with keys, will your method keep keyboard 2's keys "live" for playing? in my perfect world I would like to (as you show) have all of board 2 (Roland FA-06 for now) sounds together on midi channels in a combi with Kronos sounds for each song in the set. Hit the setlist slot and rock on! And when I need to play a Roland pad while playing a Kronos lead have both keys active.
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Korg Kronos 61 Korg Karma Korg Trinity+ DSI Rev 2 16 Casio MZ-X500 61-KEY Roland SH201 Roland FA-06 Ensoniq ESQ1 Alesis 7.1 Alesis Ion Alesis S4 and S4+ Emu B3 mod Yamaha MM6
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving a quick scan over the manual for the FA, it looks like it's set up exactly like the Integra for what you need -- 16 parts in a Studio Set, with an MFX and global Chorus and Reverb. You'll have no problem to duplicate the Kronos combi on your FA-06, while having some independence as well.

You can easily do what I outlined above spread over 2 keyboards. I just happen to have the Kronos, a 61-key MIDI controller, and an Integra. Sounds like you have the Kronos and the FA-06, which acts as both MIDI controller and sound engine like what I have in the Integra. You'll just need to set up the MIDI channels on the FA as you need; didn't immediately find how to split and assign channels in the manual, but I'd be surprised if the FA couldn't do it easily.

In my case, I set the Kronos on MIDI channel 1, split up into keyboard range / zones as needed. The 2nd keyboard is on MIDI channel 2 (lower two octaves, bass) and channel 3 (alternate main sound, split into zones as needed). In your case, you should think from an instrument per layer / MIDI channel point of view, and then mold the K and R to fit as needed. Function over form; structural need over technical implementation...

(redundant paragraph follows...)

If you're looking to make thick layers with the K and the Roland, but also have the ability to play each independently as needed, then what you need is to have an overall structure dictate your setups, and then mold the K and the R to match that need. In my case, that structure means something like bass sounds on ch2, main sounds split on ch1, alternate main sound splits on ch3. It looks like the FA also has definable keyboard ranges, channels, level/pan, and Offsets (filter cutoff and res, envelope ADR) in Part View, like the Integra. So however you decide to define your structure, both the K and the R can mold to fit your needs while matching each other so you can have ultimate one button control from the Kronos Set List...

Let me know if I can help you more.
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention a basic lower level signal flow requirement, which can be easily overlooked while designing from a higher conceptual point of view. This is the sound engineer / network engineer in me that is speaking.

Make sure your 2nd controller (your FA) has a MIDI OUT to the K's IN.

And of course the K as the master will have MIDI OUT to the FA MIDI IN.

Use your MIDI THRU's as needed for additional gear.

Without using some other pre-planned structure to organize your combis, the hookup above will simply allow the K to play the K + R, or the R to play the R + K, if they're both set to the default MIDI channel 1. You'll just have Korg-Roland layers on one MIDI channel. Set the R to MIDI ch2 (while K remains on ch1), and you can begin to have versatility with the K playing ch1 layers of K+R, while the R does ch2 layers of R+K.

To get more versatilty, you could split combis using just keyboard ranges: K does ch1 splits/layers, R does ch2 splits/layers. Ignoring the sequencer mode, the K keyboard can only play on one MIDI channel at a time; probably the same story with the FA. Some MIDI controllers, however, can split their keyboards to play 2 or more MIDI channels as a master controller (like Privia 5X-S or Motif XF zones). My 61-key X-station is set up to do ch2 on the lower two octaves (bass) and ch3 on the upper 3 octaves (alternate main sounds), with the K doing ch1 and X doing ch2/ch3. The keyboards are dedicated to their respective MIDI channels, and all combis are designed with that in mind.

Moral of the story:

One standard structure to rule them all: something like pianos on ch1, organs on ch3, bass on ch2, extra one-shot samples and blips on unused keyboard zones, etc... Keyboard ranges and MIDI channel assignments are like an orchestra with instruments fulfilling specific musical needs... Planning is everything.
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drb32856
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Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
I forgot to mention a basic lower level signal flow requirement, which can be easily overlooked while designing from a higher conceptual point of view. This is the sound engineer / network engineer in me that is speaking.

Make sure your 2nd controller (your FA) has a MIDI OUT to the K's IN.

And of course the K as the master will have MIDI OUT to the FA MIDI IN.

Use your MIDI THRU's as needed for additional gear.

Without using some other pre-planned structure to organize your combis, the hookup above will simply allow the K to play the K + R, or the R to play the R + K, if they're both set to the default MIDI channel 1. You'll just have Korg-Roland layers on one MIDI channel. Set the R to MIDI ch2 (while K remains on ch1), and you can begin to have versatility with the K playing ch1 layers of K+R, while the R does ch2 layers of R+K.

To get more versatilty, you could split combis using just keyboard ranges: K does ch1 splits/layers, R does ch2 splits/layers. Ignoring the sequencer mode, the K keyboard can only play on one MIDI channel at a time; probably the same story with the FA. Some MIDI controllers, however, can split their keyboards to play 2 or more MIDI channels as a master controller (like Privia 5X-S or Motif XF zones). My 61-key X-station is set up to do ch2 on the lower two octaves (bass) and ch3 on the upper 3 octaves (alternate main sounds), with the K doing ch1 and X doing ch2/ch3. The keyboards are dedicated to their respective MIDI channels, and all combis are designed with that in mind.

Moral of the story:

One standard structure to rule them all: something like pianos on ch1, organs on ch3, bass on ch2, extra one-shot samples and blips on unused keyboard zones, etc... Keyboard ranges and MIDI channel assignments are like an orchestra with instruments fulfilling specific musical needs... Planning is everything.


Thanks so much. Your information has shed the light on this area of Kronos for me as I have labored and thrown up my hands on several occasions trying to make my rig responsive to me in this way. This weekend will be spent working on the set list for next week's gigs. So I am setting things up as you laid out to get ready.
Thanks again
Cool
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Korg Kronos 61 Korg Karma Korg Trinity+ DSI Rev 2 16 Casio MZ-X500 61-KEY Roland SH201 Roland FA-06 Ensoniq ESQ1 Alesis 7.1 Alesis Ion Alesis S4 and S4+ Emu B3 mod Yamaha MM6
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