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midi snyc latency issue
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't really had any problems with MIDI on Windows except for the obscure 10 port limit which hasn't been an issue on Windows 10. This is on about five different systems using at least 15 different interfaces/drivers. What makes you say that, Seedy?
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had some big issues with Windiows MIDI particularly when a device is transmitting MIDI real time. For example with WIN7 and above (unless fixed now in later versions - have not checked on WIN10) it completely screws up large bulk data dumps such as SY99 sequencer data. It was also curtailing EX5 Voice dumps which are also pretty large, but if you turn off the clock on the EX5 (or use the MIDI B out port like I do) then it works fine. I verified this happening in a low level tool like MIDIOX as well as my own librarians.

So I would not rule it out as a possible culprit, esp if the other devices are not sending real time?? If the others are not and the Kronos is transmitting real time data, I would try setting the Kronos to be a slave and drive it from the DAW clock to see if it makes a difference.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:
I haven't really had any problems with MIDI on Windows except for the obscure 10 port limit which hasn't been an issue on Windows 10. This is on about five different systems using at least 15 different interfaces/drivers. What makes you say that, Seedy?


Firstly, there's two different APIs for MIDI on Windows: Legacy Windows Multimedia and DirectMusic. Bother of these have varying levels of support and compatibility between both applications and MIDI drivers making it a bit of a crapshoot as to whether a given MIDI device will work with a given application.

Secondly, although Windows does include a class-compliant driver, it's usually not very good and has to be augmented or replaced with a manufacturer driver - and these vary in quality quite substantially.

On top of this, these drivers will sit on top of the chipset drivers for the USB ports themselves. So you end up with a stack of potential compatibility issues:

- Application Level: Support for WMM vs DirectMusic.
- MIDI Driver: May or may not support WMM / DirectMusic well. Quality of emulated DirectMusic ports.
- USB Driver

On my Windows 7 machine for example, Sonar offers support for both DirectMusic and WMM drivers - and each performed better or worse depending on the specific device I was using.

Using Cubase, if a USB MIDI device came unplugged (or turned off) whilst the application was running, the whole application would freeze and would need to be forcibly restarted!

But the most frustrating issue I had with MIDI on Windows was trying to track down why I could receive MIDI from my MOTU MIDI device, but not receive it. Turns out that the MOTU MIDI drivers and the drivers for my NEC USB 3.0 controller weren't compatible - if I changed MIDI port or swapped to using emulated DirectMusic ports, suddenly I could send MIDI again!

Add on other vagaries, like the obscure 10-port MIDI device limit and it's not a fun experience, and one that sadly doesn't look like one Microsoft are keen to improve.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds frustrating for sure. I can only reiterate that I haven't had any of those issues using at least 15 different devices across multiple systems. You're making it sound like MIDI on Windows is a "luck of the draw" situation. To me, that hasn't been the case at all.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly not suggesting that all users will have these issues, but Windows (by virtue of its flexibility) also has many possible configurations and therefore more complexity.

I've been using MIDI since Windows 3.0 (with the Multimedia Extensions!) and in many ways I think it's gone backwards. Microsoft has been really bad at supporting audio and MIDI on Windows generally. They need to invest some time and money on decent class compliant drivers for starters.

On a Mac, you have good class-compliant drivers and CoreAudio / CoreMIDI out of the box. You can aggregate devices, do MIDI over Ethernet and Bluetooth and a whole raft of things without any additional software.

Windows you still need ASIO and vendor-specific MIDI drivers for every different piece of kit you have to make it work properly.

Case in point: try getting the Kronos to run as an audio interface on Windows with bearable latency - it's impossible. Plug it into a Mac, it just works.
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Korg Kronos 61, , Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Behringer BCR2000, Yamaha QY70, VocalWorks+, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge.

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually many people have had irresolvable issues running Kronos as interface on Mac because Apple depreciated the timing method the Korg driver uses to sync clock. Meanwhile I've used the Kronos as low latency interface on Win 7 and Win 10 without issue. Although I do have to admit I'm not a power user with this, I mostly use my RME. I agree it's probably a matter of configuration and many Windows users simply use their office or home PC to start recording which can indeed be sub-optimal. CoreAudio and CoreMIDI are, within their limits, good protocols, no doubt.

I just balk at the suggestion that Mac is so much better at music production in general. This was true ten years ago but not today. I've troubleshot (troubleshooted?) way more Macs than PCs with regards to interfaces/drivers/etc.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always good to hear an alternative perspective. I have only recently switched to Mac after mainly using Windows for the past 25 years, including for music and video production, but I have found the difference to be quite profound.

Don't get me wrong - I actually think most of the issues I've had on Windows are due to its greater flexibility and poor drivers, but I also think Microsoft have been really late to the party in addressing the needs of audio professionals. Kernel Streaming and WaveRT drivers are relatively recent innovations, and not all software and drivers have been updated to take advantage of them yet. Whereas CoreAudio and CoreMidi have been part of OS X for 15-odd years.

Incidentally, how did you manage to get low latency performance with the Kronos under Windows and in what software were you able to achieve this?
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Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000
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amit
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had some bad experience (critical $$$$$) with mac many many years ago. So I've been using windows for last 16-17 years (along with linux).

I agree that with windows it's a much wider eco system, which though is good, but leads to much more incompatibilities among the various hardware devices.
The problem may not be necessarily due to windows itself (as the os) but rather the Hardware and any specific device drivers which are prone to user/developer errors.

Even on macs, to get the best out of your hardware device, you'd have specific device drivers by the device manufacturer. however yes, native mac audio layer (core audio) is better still than windows.

However now with WASAPI push and event models (EXCL) windows can too natively interface with compatible hardware bypassing HAL.

I haven't had much issues with Midi on Windows as a user or developer in the last 20 or so odd years since cakewalk pro audio 4.5.
but again, they (windows or mac) are just the tools. use what works best for you with all else you got, don't matter what is the best, if doesn't get your work done.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that a good interface is key on both systems. My RME is problem free whereas my M-Audio Fast Track Pro wasn't always. I never blamed Windows though. I blame the OS when drivers disappear, when compatibility is broken on a simple OS update, or when there are dumb limitations like "you can't have more than 10 midi devices installed". That last one is finally solved with Windows 10. The former two I've had happen with OSX far more often.

Anyway, bottom line, both are computers so both suck. You just have to know which button to press.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well these days I do everything in hardware. I have much fewer problems and am really happy with the workflow (mostly). But every now and then I'm tempted by some exotic piece of software or new feature Smile
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MusicianSickness
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seedy im absolutely sure your 100% right.
I have ran extensive tests with no solution...
My last test left is to use the USB connection.
☆☆question
How do you disable kronos from transmitting sysex...

Thanks...
Patrick
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MusicianSickness
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found out how to disable...disregard
Also on topic of windows and midi...i have to disagree.
I too have been on windows since 3.0
As mentioned before, all my other hardware is working flawlessly with current and past setups, this is the main reason i knew this was kronos issue. Didnt know about it transmitting sysex...im almost 100% sure this is the culprit....
I also was mac with a protools hd setup back in 2003. Was very enjoyable, except the midi implementation!
I built a motu win based system soon after with apogee ad16x as the converters to be able to come back to Cakewalk Wink
Best move ive ever made!
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MusicianSickness
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: seedy lee is the winner!! Reply with quote

Seedy Lee is the genius!
disabled the sysex transmit and all my sync issues are gone!


Your are the man Seedy...please accept this *virtual Beer* and toast in your honor!

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear your issues are resolved! Did you disable sysex transmission on the Kronos or in your DAW?

And I just realized I didn't get back to SeedyLee - I don't recall that I did anything special, I used Ableton and it worked fine. I may have used ASIO4ALL but it's been while.
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MusicianSickness
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...in Kronos
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