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Sampling kronos via sequencer/saving songs

 
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yawnthepost



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Sampling kronos via sequencer/saving songs Reply with quote

Incredibly frustrated today - two things I've done a hundred times before just won't work as they should:

1. I'm working in sequencer mode and want to record a kronos voice to the sampler to use in the sequence. I set it up as usual and it records, but after losing my sample (see 2 below) I can't repeat the procedure. What can I be missing? Where in the manual is a simple explanation of how to record the kronos itself to sampler? (Rather than audio)
2. After saving my song several times successfully, on the fifth or sixth save the song title adds the suffix 'user bank' - as if I just need to save the contents of that file...in previous saves the song title had come up as it should. I amended the title and it saved as it should - but somewhere in the process my sample (converted to a program) was lost. Am I being stupid?

Any help at all appreciated.
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19naia
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Joined: 29 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recording a program's sound from Midi track to audio track requires recording the L/R output or FX route to capture the sound from the midi tracks.

Recording a program's sound to the Sampler requires resampling to be checked in the sample set up. I use "auto sample setup" and then check the prompt for resample.
Other wise you have to go in manually to bus and routing to determine where your sample will be recorded from along the route from input to FX, and outputs.

You have to setup a sample number which designates where it will be indexed , then assign and create its position on the keboard if an MS, and also options for sample to disk or RAM. If you were out of RAM space, you should have gotten a popup dialouge box. But there is a place to see your available RAM.

Assuming you had your setup and record all sorted out, and your problem is strictly saving the sample, then one advantage of "auto sample setup" is you get a dialougie box popup on screen with your quick options including "save to" and the options to save to disk or RAM.. You need it saved to disk no matter what route you go, the way to be sure you have it saved for visible access in Disk mode.
"Auto sample setup" is in the drop-down page menu bar.
Ram gets wiped when kronos powers down, so any samples you made will have to be loaded to RAM everytime you power on or be added to autoload if that is possible. Even with Save to disk option selected, it still behaves like RAM in the sense that you specify a file/directory for it to go but it will not remain in sampler index after power is off. You still have to load the samples every time you power up or you set them to autoload if possible.
Same with Songs, they get wiped away at power off. And samples do not save as song files but as sample files that may or may not be embedded in the song file directory.

Once you get your sample made and working, saving it starts with the "save to" designation, to RAM or to Disk. I always use disk because there is more virtual memory there and that saves RAM space for things that only have the option to use RAM.
Even if you save to RAM, you still need a file of it with you PCG or sample files in Disk mode, when RAM gets wiped on power down, you will have a disk file of your samples.

To be extra sure, once you have all set in Sampler as you want, go to disk mode "Save" page and be sure to find the option to save samples or as much as save all for being sure you have it saved to disk. Save to disk is the only way to be sure you have it for later.

Converting a sample to program only assigns it to a program but does nothing to save the sample. Program references the sample in the sample index and if the sample does not get loaded into index on power up, then the program will not have any sample sound. Saving sample has to happen first in a sample file and directory ,and from there it can always be loaded to sampler index.

Page 677 to 687 of parameter guide covers the Sampling mode details you need and sampling mode section goes beyond page 687 into audio page details, sample edit, control surface and more.

Be sure your setup goes right all the way through to recording, and then be sure that you work out saving in disk mode first before working out details of how RAM works with saving your samples. One wrong turn in RAM and you will wish you had a disk file backup.
My best guess right now is that the samples saved to RAM are lost once power goes off and they will always need to be manually reloaded or autoloaded(if possible) at next power up, and nothing can load unless you have it saved in disk mode.
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yawnthepost



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your long and detailed reply. I certainly was not aware of the auto sample setup and for drawing my attention to that alone I am grateful.

I always save to disc, and when I need to save samples and multisamples, and have ms converted to progams I always use 'save all'...

However when loading something goes wrong. The samples don't always load.

What I don't understand is why, after I have worked on something I have previously saved and reloaded successfully, and wish to resave it, the dialogue box that I use to 'save all' renames my piece - adding 'user bank' to my title. This creates a new folder beneath the others. To simplify things, and to try and work out what is happening, I delete the additional 'use bank' file info and save all. This seemed to work.

However on subsequent saves and loads my samples have disappeared again. The multisample info appears to be in the folder - although I can't find reference to the samples themselves. Where would they be, and if they have not been saved, why not?

I've had the Kronos for four or five years, and love it, but this one aspect of it is still a mystery to me - saving audio, and samples info, has never been consistent, particularly when overwrititng an existing file. Even creating a completely new folder and file doesn't solve the problem, as the Korg references the earlier folder, so things get very confusing!
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19naia
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i sample, it gets saved to disk and the "select directory option lets me set up the disk mode file it saves to. It then gets saved as a wave file.

Save to disk always gets saved as wave files. Those are usually "Take 001" and upwards in number unless you specifically renamed them during directory select for disk mode save.
Save to RAM may have ways of working with samples such as saving an entire Multisample index as part of one sample set and of course it will be filed as "User Bank" content. Not sure but is worth exploring.
It is important to distinguish "user banks" from preset banks because preset banks are not open to change outside of global sample manage. So Sampler deals strictly with "User Bank" saves. I think save to RAM is where you save your index setup that has the sample assigned to keys. Other wise save to disk will just save a wave file that you have to figure out how to load into sampler later.
Save to RAM works but you have to then do a second save in disk mode, where your save all process can capture the RAM content to disk where it seems it has to go to a USER BANK file. Still not entirel sure if Save to RAM will save as user bank KSC files or as Wave files. The parameter guides just makes a very breif word a out how RAM saves work. And i am away from kronos where i would see for myself.
I am sure save to disk only saves as wave files.. Try Save to RAM and leave the added "User Bank" file in place when you "save all" to capture RAM content in disk mode. If you do get user bank content sorted and working, you can explore if it is possible to set up auto load for it in global so that the program you converted the sample into, will have the sample auto loaded at power on or at least get a prompt for "load required samples".

Here is an excerpt from Parameter guide

~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
You can check the remaining amount of RAM in the section labeled “0–1f: Free Sample Memory/Locations,” as described on page 686.
Note: The amount of RAM available for user sampling will vary depending upon both the amount of physical RAM installed, and the size of the currently loaded EXs banks. For more information, see “Sampling and RAM” on page 677.
Data written into RAM will be lost when the power is turned off, so you must save it if you want to keep it.
DISK: The sound will be recorded to disk as a WAVE file. You can select a disk (internal or USB), directory, and name for the recorded file using the Select Directory/File for Sample to Disk menu command.
Once recorded, you can audition the sample directly from the Select Directory/File for Sample to Disk window; just select the file and press the on-screen Play button or the front-panel SAMPLING START/STOP switch. To stop playback, either press the SAMPLING START/STOP switch again, or touch the on-screen Stop button.
If the sample will fit into RAM, you can also load it into Sampling Mode (using the Load command in Disk mode).
You cannot load a disk sample (WAVE file) that exceeds the amount of available RAM.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Your saved to disc files should be sabed as wave files labelled "Take" with a number after such as "Take 00" and upwards. The User bank files seem to be there for Save to RAM and indexed samples.

Sorry if the best i can come up with is not sorting the issue out. Just trying and also hoping to learn something new if you get it sorted out.
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yawnthepost



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again, you have been very helpful - a number of things you have said has suggested what may be wrong.

I create my own samples, then multisamples, then convert these to programs, and use these in songs - I consistently use 'save all' to disk as default.

I created something last night, saved all, but on loading this morning the samples were not there - although the converted programs were there, named. But the multisamples and the samples contained in them had gone.

However, I reloaded just the song information via auto-load and the samples and multisamples appeared - but were not correctly allocated to the programs I had converted from these multisamples.

So my hunch is the problem lies in the auto-load.

I am going to experiment later but don't have as much time as I'd like...but here is my guess as to what is happening.

When I 'save all' and then reload the first time everything is ok. But when I add, or alter the samples and multisamples, then resave and later, reload again, the Korg is reverting to a different auto-load than the one I need.

And thus the question I asked at the beginning- why does the Korg rename my song, adding 'user-bank' to the title when I resave may be a clue...

This is at the heart of what's causing me the problem. If the Korg allowed me to simply resave over the old data I wouldn't have this problem, but it wants to manage the save for me by renaming something...

If I delete the autoload and do everything manually, I think my problem will be solved! But we'll see...

Once again, very many thanks for your advice: you solved my sampling problem and gave me clues to where the problemlies with the saving procedure.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yawnthepost wrote:
Thank you again, you have been very helpful - a number of things you have said has suggested what may be wrong.
If I delete the autoload and do everything manually, I think my problem will be solved!
Once again, very many thanks for your advice: you solved my sampling problem and gave me clues to where the problemlies with the saving procedure.


You seem to be on top of it and you brought to mind that Kronos may be saving the new addition sample creations as an entirely new file within the song file packet, so you end up with several separated files for the samples per each time you save a new index/ work session of them.
Also if you went back to make new samples later without loading the old ones in first, you may end up not only making 2 files to load from in disk, but also making new samples with the same sample numbers as the old ones and then one or the other will overwrite one of them into ommission or actually cause kronos to move the overwrite conflict one into the next available sample number slot.
Kronos does have "overwrite" protections within the sampler commands such as when saving edited samples from the sample/loop edit page. The "Save" command dialogue box has a box to check for overwrite or default of no overwrite. Without overwrite, kronos will move any conflicting sample to the next empty sample number slot. "Select sample No./number" is the function where you manually decide where it goes.

Here is an excerpt from the Parameter guide page 748
~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In “To Sample No.,” specify the save destination sample number. By default, an unused sample number will be selected. If Overwrite is checked, this cannot be selected.
If Overwrite is checked, the sample number will be fixed to the current sample, and cannot be changed. See “About Overwrite” on page 727.
For stereo samples, use “Save to No.(L)” and “(R)” to specify the save-destination of the L and R channels.
To execute the Save operation, press the OK button. To cancel without saving press the Cancel button.
~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So this same overwrite versus addendum option applies when loading from disk. If you end up finding that all your samples indexed for one song are scattered about in separated files under the song file packet, then you can go and load them all from one file and then follow up with the other files. I guess multi select is available for sample loading in disk mode or global auto load and that the option for addendum or overwrite should appear there.. Load them all from whatever scattered files and arrange them as you want(using sampler drop down menu command) and resave them in a new song file that isn't so fragmented. Its not just seting them up for save in RAM the right way but also loading them from disk or global next time in the right way. This means you have to explore the way disk mode works with sample files as well as what is going on with RAM saves versus disk saves within Sample mode.

I think Kronos is doing the right thing by naming your file "User bank" because RAM samples are two main categories, User and preset. Same reason Kronos will label a file KSC and another "TAKE 00" despite both being samples made from sample mode. They are different things working in a common mode of Kronos. Factory EX samples are another thing as well in terms of how they are referenced, and certainly not as user banks samples unless you have a third party sound set that included user bank content.

I think you can better understand kronos sample filing system by going to Global Sample manage where you will see sample "bank" and "type" options that tell you the classification of sample types. You seem to have auto load section working for you, and i think Sample manage section will help make better sense of how to make saved files work for you.

The sample files that you open in Sample manage page of global, are listed as they occur in your current loaded PCG set which can also be related to the file view you get in autoload page of global. Auto load page view of samples, views the samples in disk mode storage ,available for loading.

Excerpt from parameter guide page 766 on sample management.

~~~~~~~~~~
Overview
This page offers tools for managing all the loaded sample data, including Sampling Mode, EXs, and User Sample Banks. You can:
• See an overview of memory usage
• See the loaded Multisamples, Samples, or Drum Samples for each bank
• View and change the load method (RAM or Virtual Memory) for each item in EXs and User Sample Banks
• Unload items from memory
~~~~~~~~~~~
Notice how sample manage refers only to Seeing loaded samples and unloading them.
Autoload page is where you do your loading(as you already know and do), and do your view of what sample files exist in disk mode saved content.
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yawnthepost



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for not replying sooner - I've been away. I am grateful for all your thoughts - you've certainly made me aware of things I hadn't come across before. The Korg is an infinite machine, and even though I've had it for what I think is five years, there are still not just dark corners I am yet to investigate, but whole rooms, even vast estates! But saving samples and audio files has always been the one thing that has never felt consistent, and although I have found ways of working, I am never confident, when I save a song, that I will be able to recover it fully. I just don't grasp why the Korg renames files, and if this is the reason my files are sometimes lost. Even so, despite these weaknesses, it seems an acceptable flaw for a machine that has so much potential for creativity.
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