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Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: Creating sound sets questions
Since i'm rather unfamiliar with what keyboard players expect when they download or buy a sound set i have some questions about this. The questions arises when i was programming the ambient dreams piano collection for the korg pa4x, the pa4x can do this perfectly, but i'm not sure what approach i should take.
Personally i think the best way is to deliver the sounds in keyboard sets. This way you can use up till 4 sound layers to create the sounds. The sounds can be edited (the basic parameters) in the keyboard sets which is enough to create those sounds. The custom sounds where the keyboard layers are based on can be put in the custom sounds section.
Now based on the above statement, i have the following questions:
- is this a good approach to share the sounds?
- if i create custom sounds and store them for instance in user bank 01 and use those sounds in keyboard sets, does this interfere with other commercial sound sets that also use their sounds in user bank 01 (or are the sounds referenced in a keyboard set by a specific sound ID , so that you can load the user sounds in any user bank that you want, and still get a working keyboard set?)
- is a sound set with custom sounds enough in the keyboard world, or is it expected to add custom styles to them (which can be done of course, but is much more work)
I know that quite a few of the users here are very experienced PaX players, so i'm really interested in your opinions about this.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Creating sound sets questions
QuiRobinez wrote:
- if i create custom sounds and store them for instance in user bank 01 and use those sounds in keyboard sets, does this interfere
with other commercial sound sets that also use their sounds in user bank 01 (or are the sounds referenced in a keyboard set by a
specific sound ID , so that you can load the user sounds in any user bank that you want, and still get a working keyboard set?)
Custom PCM resources architecture is somehow awkward in PaSeries compared to excellent samples management of Kronos !
For instance let's say that you always have one only Preload.KSC and everytime you load another one , previous samples are lost,
but also custom samples are not saved in SSD/HD as in Kronos , but system will always reload samples to Ram.
Therefore we must always merge custom resources in one SET and also use another custom sound bank for your resources that users
usually do not use with 4 User bank options & 2 DKS banks , just like Program Banks of Kronos !
Read for example WavesArt commercial Pa4X/3X Sound Libraries that are targeting only User Banks 3 & 4
http://wavesart.eu/Pa3XSoundLibraries
QuiRobinez wrote:
- is a sound set with custom sounds enough in the keyboard world, or is it expected to add custom styles to them (which can be done
of course, but is much more work)
It's up to you to decide !
My architecture in commercial Pa4X libraries is just the enhance of factory resources that will definitely be an asset for users to improve
their own styles replacing DKs / Bass / Guitars / Piano / Strings / Brass / Organs of styles , but I also distribute bundles that contain
also a big variation of styles in solid packs that almost all required are included , for instance http://pastyles.x10.mx/Pa4X_ENG.html
I have my custom sounds now in user bank 01 and 02. To be honest, i was stunned by the synth engine in the pa4x. Imagine how surprised i was when i discovered that it supports wave sequencing and sounds with 24 steps / oscs.
I already created a sound set that can rival the sound sets on the kronos i've created. I never expected that the synth engine was that powerful. And this set was based on the internal rom sounds. I can easely add my own samples to it to create new sounds from them. So i'm really happy and very impressed by the engine in the pa4x.
the four layer structure combined with the custom wave sequenced sounds is one big powerhouse for me. I will look at your example sites and going to take my time to think about the best way to distribute those sets.
I never expected that the synth engine was that powerful.
I was sure that you would be amazed , that's why I had focused only on sampler engine in my first introduction to you !
You can take chance of all advantages there (you've already grabbed "cycle" feature) and this is only just a Sampler
engine like Kronos HD1 , just imagine the addition of other two real synth engines like Kronos AL1 / MS20 and of
course user samples streaming from SSD in the next flagship ! _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Creating sound sets questions
AntonySharmman wrote:
and this is only just a Sampler
engine like Kronos HD1 , just imagine the addition of other two real synth engines like Kronos AL1 / MS20
agree, but for me the current sample library is enough for standard substractive synthesis, I don't need those synthengines in the pa4x to achieve most of the sounds that you normally would get with the AL1 / ms20 (disregarding the filter section of those engines of course, which would have a rather big impact on the end sound result).
You can easely use the included Pa4x synthesizer as a standard substractive synth when loading the basic synth rom samples in those oscs.
I use this list from the rom library:
1273 Saw
1282 Square
1285 Triangle MG
1287 Ramp MG
1288 sine
1276 Pulse 02%
Special oscs:
1268 Noise1
1237 Detuned Super saw
1238 Detuned PWM
Now imagine that you have 24 oscs available (which is insane for normal substrative synth use) and those basic waveforms above. Then you can create almost any substrative synth sound you want. It was rather easy for me to create the current dance sounds in that engine since the standard techniques for that (like the fast pitch envelopes and lfos) could be applied to those basic Sample Oscs.
It's so powerfull and it reminds me of programming the roland synths (especially the JV series)
the only thing i really miss at the moment is a bpm based osc delay setting, now when you create wavesequenced sounds you have to enter the delay in milliseconds. The conversion is not a real problem of course, but it means that you can only use rythmic type of wave sequences on one bpm value. For crossfading type of waves it's not a real problem.
For instance when i create a wave sequence sound in 134 bpm i must use the following settings:
1/1: 1791.04 ms
1/2: 895.52 ms
1/4: 447.76 ms
1/8: 223.88 ms
1/16: 111.94 ms
1/32: 55.97 ms
1/64: 27.98 ms
1/128: 13.99 ms
It would be nice if the engine could be programmed in a way that it calculates this on the fly in a style (just like the kronos does)
You know that an arranger is not made for WS or Karma purposes since already provides a rhythm interface !
This is strictly a workstation/DAW duty , but although that you see that also wave sequencing is also feasible
in this great sampler engine !
This OSC delay sequencing is mostly used for agvanced sound articulations development.
But there is a problem that you will soon face in modeling that I keep on protesting for more than 8 years but still nothing ...
The existing valuable sliders in Pa2-4X can be assigned only with midi controls CC#12 & C#13 that can adjust only FX !
Sliders can't be assigned in AMS of any of Amp/Pitch/Filter/LFO (no C#12,13 option) and this great feature is completely
wasted with the lacking of 1-2 extra common CC in sliders assignment like CC# 17-21 that exist in AMS menu !
This prevents users and developers from creating real time controlled organ drawbars or 8 OSC groups for analog synth modeling !
For instance I have a great Pa4X commercial library of organs http://wavesart.eu/Pa3XSoundLibraries/Vintage%20Organs.html
and I can't assign presets/stoppers with sliders that would be a great feature for users that own this !
This simple to add fuction of extra CC# options in sliders assign menu would land off Pa4X for synth modeling ! _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: How to merge samples from various sources
QuiRobinez wrote:
.. think the best way is to deliver the sounds in keyboard sets. This way you can use up till 4 sound layers to create the sounds ..
So far I had Pa-keyboards without sample functions, so my information about are from manuals. For this reason I am interested in this thread in which something is incomprehensible for me.
What does it mean "You can use up to 4 sound layers to create the sounds that are delivered in keyboard sets."
First the term "4 sound layers" is confusing - I think you talk about the four banks of the user-sound-folder, which actually there are five (User01 - 04.pcg + UserDK.pcg) in the media structure of a Pa4x-SET. So I think we could not talk about a "four layer structure" but of sound banks in media structure.
Next for me decisive in user-sounds (PCGs) is, however, whether user-multisamples (MS) are used with that PCGs or not. To transfer user-PCGs with factory-MS is simple but it is more complicated if transferring user-PCGs based on user-MS. That is because loading a ".SET" folder containing User-MS is erasing all previous User-MS from memory, so one can not merge recent User-MS with newly delivered User-MS. In media structure there only one folder exists for samples (PCM) and there are no tools in Pa-Keyboard, to merge PCM with individual filling with new samples.
So I do not understand how to merge samples from various sources. As there is no way to merge different samples by loading complete set folders, one must load single sounds or drumkits based on User-MS.
But will be ensured that with a single loaded User-PCG (Sound or DK) synonymous all contained User-MS are loaded into User-PCM-memory - is there someone who can confirm this?
*
I think there one additional restriction still has to be considered - user-bank-data loaded from a storage device are merged with data already existing in memory. But if there would be data existing in an User-Bank, this bank will be overwritten. So without risk to loose data it only is possible to load user-data into empty user banks of folders Perform/Sound/Style/Pad.
Now loading some User-PCGs into an empty User-Sound-bank will be ensured all contained User-MS of all that User-PCGs are loaded into User-PCM-memory?
**
AntonySharmman wrote:
.. we must always merge custom resources in one SET ... read for example WavesArt commercial Pa4X/3X Sound Libraries that are targeting only User Banks 3 & 4
As in manuals I got no satisfying answer to my questions how to merge samples from various sources, I have my concerns about how to load a larger number of user-sounds with user-samples into Pa keyboards. I think the amount of time and effort must be enormous - eg specifically if i study a list of Sound library RAM Samples description of Pa4X V2 Platinum Edition 800 MB. _________________ kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Siebenhirter , I think it's time to get a serious arranger and all your questions will be answered , there is no meaning to learn
essential functions of Pa4X without owning it , besides all you ask have been already answered in korgforum PaSeries sections !
Briefly just FYI :
- 4 sound layers (actually 3 active) has the meaning of overall sound development of 3 SOUND timbres in Keyboard Set mode
that consist of 24x3 = 72 simultaneus OSC , this is what Qui means.
- Pa4X has 6 user banks , 4 SOUND plus 2 DK
- When loading a sound from a custom set then automatically all required samples will be loaded for any PaSeries since 15 years
and the propriate way to merge sets with custom samples.
- When loading a whole.set then all existing PCM will be overwritten unlike loading Sound banks or standallone sounds that will be
loaded in append mode , preserving the already existing samples until Ram is filled.
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Merge User-Sounds / User-Samples
AntonySharmman wrote:
... I think it's time to get a serious arranger and all your questions will be answered , there is no meaning to learn
essential functions of Pa4X without owning it , besides all you ask have been already answered in korgforum PaSeries sections !
- 4 sound layers (actually 3 active) has the meaning of overall sound development of 3 SOUND timbres in Keyboard Set mode
Hallo Anthony,
absolutely no to your comments in that case , because - if reading questions and answers in Pa-Sections of Korg-Forums in different countries, sometimes I think to know functions of Pa4x much more better than some Pa4x-owners, just using small fractions of the available features. Neverthelss thank you for your information.
*
Four realtime tracks of Korg-Pa are well known to me for more than 15 years - but usually call it realtime tracks (or Upper and Lower Keyboard Parts), which could be stored in performances and STS, renamed to keyboard sets since new series. But I never would design that as "Layers" in connection talking about Samples and so it would confuse me the term "4 sound layers" also if owing a Pa4x. Not necessarily purchase a Pa4x therefore just misunderstanding the interpretation of a term unsuitable in context.
*
Also should be possible without buying a Pa4x to get simple answers, how to simply merge sounds from various sources.
I accept your answer, that loading a sound from a custom set automatically will load all required samples, merging sets with custom samples.
This confirms my fears of an enormous effort merging a larger number of single user-sounds, except it is ensured for loading a complete sound bank containing sounds with user samples also would loading all the required samples and mix them with the custom samples.
AntonySharmman wrote:
- When ... loading Sound banks ... sounds that will be loaded in append mode, preserving the already existing samples until Ram is filled ...
Now would not it be simple, to get information how to load "Sound banks .. that will be loaded in append mode, preserving the already existing samples until Ram is filled".
This I never found in documentations of Pa4x, never read about an append mode. And first of all before buying an €3000,- device i want to know, how simple or how complicated it would be loading huge sound libraries (like Platinum Edition 800MB).
PS: Maybe you animated me to purchase a Pa-Keyboard again with Sampler-function _________________ kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject:
siebenhirter wrote:
Four realtime tracks of Korg-Pa are well known to me for more than 15 years - but usually call it realtime tracks (or Upper and Lower Keyboard Parts), which could be stored in performances and STS, renamed to keyboard sets since new series. But I never would design that as "Layers" in connection talking about Samples and so it would confuse me the term "4 sound layers" also if owing a Pa4x. Not necessarily purchase a Pa4x therefore just misunderstanding the interpretation of a term unsuitable in context.
the korg pa4x doesn't use the term realtime tracks, there isn't any reference to this terminology in the manual.
As anthony stated, the 4 layers comment (3 upper sounds and one lower) is just a term that most musicians i know use to point out that the keyboard set contains one sound where the individual keyboard set parts are designed to work together (upper 1, 2 and 3 and 1 lower). But i'm more from the sound design area in the synthesizer world, so i still have to get used to the terminology in the keyboard world, so maybe that's why i used some words that probably are uncommon in the keyboard world. So it's good that you are saying that you didn't understand a word of what i was trying to say. That's a good learning experience for me
What i was trying to say is the following example: let's say that we have a keyboard set where the upper 1 part contains a piano sound and the upper 2 part contains a string, in that case you have created a piano pad sound which contains of 2 layers (1 piano and 1 pad) to create the end result sound which is a Piano Pad sound (which is considered as one sound build out of 2 layers).
On a PaX you don't have to use only one keyboard part when playing your songs, you can combine keyboard parts to create your unique sound.
I did it in this example where i created a custom keyboard set where every sound was reprogrammed in the keyboard set in sound edit mode per part:
In my current sound set i created lot's of new sounds that were all created in such a way that they should work together as layers in keyboard sets. So in my 'usage case' you could use each sound stand alone but if you use one of the custom keyboard sets you can take full advantage of the three upper layers (three single sounds) known as keyboard parts (and one lower keyboard part sound) on the pa4x to create one unique sound (in my current set these are wavesequenced sounds).
Last edited by QuiRobinez on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
This I never found in documentations of Pa4x, never read about an append mode. And first of all before buying an €3000,-
device i want to know, how simple or how complicated it would be loading huge sound libraries (like Platinum Edition 800MB).
PS: Maybe you animated me to purchase a Pa-Keyboard again with Sampler-function
I can see that you're aware for many functions of PaSeries but your questions are severely a "manual" analysis in theoretical basis
that is not useful for forum Pa4X owners and not my primary concern when I post for help ... that's crystal clear !
Believe me that you will never regret of buing a Pa4X nor a PaX1000 , since at present time Pa4X is your one way option for the best
arranger that money can buy , all the rest can be resolved by helping each other here.
A proffesional arranger like Pa4X has a capable library to support a pro Musician and didn't meant to be loaded with garbage SET
around net that users will merge and mess up keyboard !
For this there is an extra fine utility that you can use called PaManager !
The role of an arranger is clear ... You're using factory resources and you create your own extra stuff in the same keyboard when
your Music genre requires it.
Third party Pro developers like WavesArt have already done all the job like in "Platinum Edition 800Mb" and you have just to load
resources in 15 min and all are arranged properly and ready to play everytime you turn on your Pa4X !
Even standalone sound libraries have their own instructions manual of how to merge your resources in less than an hour !
As last , You're not a sound developer in order to understand how we mean the term "3 SOUND layers" ...
Briefly , in my sound development of complex DNC2 instruments with a plenty of articulations , a more than one SOUND is required
(40-60 OSC) , so I use from "SOUND mode" 3 sounds as sound timbres that work only combined in STS/KBD Set mode and provides
the complete picture of acoustic instruments ... this is the magic of 72 simultaneus OSC for sound development in flagship Pa sampler engine !
WavesArt uses exactly the same architecture in Kronos Combination mode with 16 Program timbres , in order to simulate DNC innovating features.
PS: Qui , we had a simultaneous posting ... as i see you already got into work with fine results ... great ! _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
PS: Qui , we had a simultaneous posting ... as i see you already got into work with fine results ... great !
absolutely!
I'm absolutely not near your expertise level on the pa4x but everything takes time and i'm learning new things every day now and get more and more out of the pa4x.
I will show the first results next week i think, i can tell you, it will sound quite different then what you heared until now on the pa4x.
IQ can't be gained , it just preexists !
You've entered in functions paths that very experienced Pa users totally ignore so it's a matter of short time to fulfill your
creative expectations in a field that mostly looks like the usage of Pa4X as a workstation ! _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
.. korg pa4x doesn't use the term realtime tracks, there isn't any reference to this terminology in the manual
... you don't have to use only one keyboard part when playing your songs, you can combine keyboard parts to create your unique sound.
.. lot's of new sounds that were all created in such a way that they should work together as layers in keyboard sets
.. you could use each sound stand alone but if you use one of the custom keyboard sets you can take full advantage of the three upper layers (three single sounds) known as keyboard parts (and one lower keyboard part sound) on the pa4x to create one unique sound (in my current set these are wavesequenced sounds).
You are right, really could not find the term "realtime track" in Pa4x manual, but Pa-User had that term in the past (Pa3x) in case talking about using upper1-3 + lower working together.
It also is nothing new in Pa-keyboards to combine keyboard parts to create one unique sound - since 15 years every sound of each part could be reprogrammed in sound edit mode to be memorized in a custom keyboard set (just another name for a custom performance).
*
Before term "Layer" was used in case of programming the key and velocity range (setting velocity switch between Low and High layers), setting the Drum Kit’s basic parameters (choosing number of layers per key) etc. So since the last models it's up to me to accept assigning each of the Upper and Lower Sounds as layers of user kbd-sets - ok.
Although it is important to use common terms ( eg keyboard sets instead performances or sts), it is even more important to understand what that means - as mentioned above I simply was misunderstanding the interpretation of a term first time I read it in an unsuitable context - nothing else.
Thank you for your informations.
*
@Anthony
For me it does not matter that questions, how to simply merge usersounds / usersamples from various sources are severly theoretical basis before owing an instrument.
Also if you think I do no understand how you mean the term "3 SOUND layers" I thank you for your information, that with instruction manuals I should be able to merge resources and standalone sound libraries in less than one hour. _________________ kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:31 pm Post subject:
AntonySharmman wrote:
You've entered in functions paths that very experienced Pa users totally ignore so it's a matter of short time to fulfill your
creative expectations in a field that mostly looks like the usage of Pa4X as a workstation !
indeed!
That's exactly what i'm working on at this moment with the sounds and styles. The Pa4x is already a perfect machine for playing existing songs, so how great would it be if i add all kind of sounds and styles that makes it sound more like a synthesizer / workstation (like my sound sets on the kronos). Then you have best of both worlds
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