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Chain Play Sequences in Song List Mode
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GaryAsaph



Joined: 21 Nov 2017
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Location: Chicagoland, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Chain Play Sequences in Song List Mode Reply with quote

Greetings all!
Just got my Kronos2 and am somewhat boggled by the learning curve.
I have used my Trinity for years in a church worship setting where I load a number of songs (backing tracks - i.e. drums, bass, strings, etc.) into the sequencer then play along live on piano or guitar. (small church short on musical talent) The Trinity allows you to select what happens when the sequenced song finishes, that is, it will advance to the next (or any loaded song you choose) song automatically when the previous song ends. You can also select whether or not the next song begins to play by itself (chain play) or wait until you hit start/stop to begin playing again. For example, I load 5 songs from my song files, set song 1 to chain to song 2 and check the continue playing box. Same for song 2, for song 3 chain to next song but leave continue playing unchecked so that the sequencer is on hold while a Scripture is read or other talking occurs. Song 4 is chained to 5 and continue playing checked. In essence this makes two sets where songs pretty much flow into one another with the live instrument covering the gaps.

It would seem that the playlist feature in Kronos would do the same thing but I can find no place to choose the next song or to automatically begin playing the next song in the set list when the previous finishes. Please don't tell me that I'm going to have to manually press a button on the screen to choose the next song and then hit start to do what I've done automatically for years. It would seem to me that that would be the whole point of having sequenced songs as a part of the play list function. Otherwise why not just load the songs you want in order in the sequencer and manually advance? What am I missing?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Chain Play Sequences in Song List Mode Reply with quote

GaryAsaph wrote:
Greetings all!
Just got my Kronos2 and am somewhat boggled by the learning curve.
I have used my Trinity for years in a church worship setting where I load a number of songs (backing tracks - i.e. drums, bass, strings, etc.) into the sequencer then play along live on piano or guitar. (small church short on musical talent) The Trinity allows you to select what happens when the sequenced song finishes, that is, it will advance to the next (or any loaded song you choose) song automatically when the previous song ends. You can also select whether or not the next song begins to play by itself (chain play) or wait until you hit start/stop to begin playing again. For example, I load 5 songs from my song files, set song 1 to chain to song 2 and check the continue playing box. Same for song 2, for song 3 chain to next song but leave continue playing unchecked so that the sequencer is on hold while a Scripture is read or other talking occurs. Song 4 is chained to 5 and continue playing checked. In essence this makes two sets where songs pretty much flow into one another with the live instrument covering the gaps.

It would seem that the playlist feature in Kronos would do the same thing but I can find no place to choose the next song or to automatically begin playing the next song in the set list when the previous finishes. Please don't tell me that I'm going to have to manually press a button on the screen to choose the next song and then hit start to do what I've done automatically for years. It would seem to me that that would be the whole point of having sequenced songs as a part of the play list function. Otherwise why not just load the songs you want in order in the sequencer and manually advance? What am I missing?


Did you search the forum ? Very same question arrived in the past week
I don't believe you can easily automate where 5 SEQ songs will chug along untouched.

We discussed using Set List and the Set Songs. Bottom line, it was thought you need to use a switch pedal to 'stop ' your SEQ song and press it again to start Song #2.

Yes, they would have to be established in order on the SEQ, saved as 1 file on SSD. Then loaded on the SEQ.

Check out that post
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GaryAsaph



Joined: 21 Nov 2017
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Location: Chicagoland, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Searched Forum and Didn't Find Reply with quote

Hi Greg,
Thx for the quick reply. Yeah, I searched the forum and the web for info about this but haven't been able to find anything (chain play Kronos sequencer). Manual advancing from sequenced song to sequenced song seems so antiquated - particularly since the feature was available on the Korg Trinity 20 years ago.
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Bald Eagle
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was called a cue list on the M3 and the Kronos doesn’t have it. Here is a thread about it.

http://korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=58502
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GaryAsaph



Joined: 21 Nov 2017
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Location: Chicagoland, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Unbelieveable Reply with quote

Thanks for the link Bald Eagle.
How frustrating... I was able to use the cue list as a work around on a Triton when my Trinity's floppy drive started to fail but even it wasn't exactly what I'm hoping for.

I'm not looking for instantaneous up, down, back and forth to build song structures like some. I just want to end one complete song and automatically advance to the next.

So, the only point to the set list feature is to be able to quickly switch between programs, combis and sequences on the fly?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Re: Unbelieveable Reply with quote

GaryAsaph wrote:


So, the only point to the set list feature is to be able to quickly switch between programs, combis and sequences on the fly?


When I have more time, I will dig around for that similar post pic from a week ago.

It was presumed you need to organize your Song file . Have it saved on your SSD. Open it and have each Song set up sequentially in Set List.

This is theoretical, I have not tried it.

Final simple step is to use your pedal to start stop SEQ play. If the above can be done, and you are ok with always having the songs in exact order, a pedal tap does not seem to be too much work
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=112439
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GaryAsaph



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: Thanks Greg Reply with quote

Yep, I had seen this but it doesn't seem to apply to what I'm trying to do...

When you say that "one pedal push" shouldn't be too much trouble, isn't it going to be two different pedal pushes (one to advance to the next song and one to start the sequence playing)?

The beauty of the way the Trinity worked was that I could start my sequenced set of songs and step away to play guitar without having to hop around on one foot changing to and starting each new song when the previous one finished.
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pete.m
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I never use the Kronos for this sort of thing, but there is a way in which you can work around it in Seq mode. It takes a little bit of work, but is do-able.

Imagine you have three four-measure songs, each with different time sigs and tempos. If you want them to run consecutively, you can create a fourth 'song' which will effectively become your set, and then copy the measures of the three songs to the new song and leave an appropriate gap between them. So, in this case, you would copy the first song to measures 1-4, maybe leave a one-measure gap, then copy the second song to measures 6-9, and so on.

I tried it, and it works. The time signatures will also change as the songs do. That's the easy bit.

If the three songs only contain, say, four midi tracks each, then you can copy them to different channels on the fourth 'song', ie tracks 1-4, then 5-8 and 9-12. But if each song contains, say, 16 channels, then you'll have to insert Program changes to change the sounds as each new song starts. You'll also want to copy any IFX and MFX settings over. Finally, you'll need to program in the new tempo as the songs change.

It sounds like a faff, but actually it can all be done in a couple of minutes. It's slightly more awkward than what you've been used to with the Trinity, but as a work-around it will certainly do the job. Hope this helps. Best of luck!
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GaryAsaph



Joined: 21 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to experiment. I'm concerned that it's going to be a ton of work because some of my sequenced songs have 8 or more tracks. Appending them together and having to tweak the programs seems a pain in the backside. Not to mention the fact that some songs will get the short shift as far as the effects go - only one song will really have priority for the effects settings.

I'm just baffled that the set list function doesn't provide a simple way to do this.
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GaryAsaph



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FIRST LIVE USE OF KRONOS LAST SUNDAY

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on the chain play workaround. Unfortunately, it turns out that the Kronos is WAY worse in this area than I had imagined. There is NO automation available.

Greg, as I feared, you need two foot pedals to make things work (song advance & song start/stop). The Kronos foot switch input can be programed to do one or the other. Unfortunately, the foot pedal input does not allow you to program either of those commands so you're still stuck right next to the keyboard to press advance or start/stop by hand - very inconvenient if you're trying to play guitar from a distance at the same time.

So... since you can have a press of the foot pedal increment the value which is the command that advances songs (midi CC on channel 96 if I'm reading the manual correctly), I got the bright idea to simply program a CC change event for this at the very end of each song which should have theoretically caused it to advance to the next song slot in set list mode (it wouldn't work in sequencer mode because the increment value command is apparently ignored while the sequencer is running, I could only advance the song by pressing the pedal once the song had ended - I could interrupt mid-song and advance with the foot switch in set list). The thought being that automating an advance to the next song with a programed cc change at the very end would allow me to load the songs in order and they would simply advance by cc command as each song ended - then I start the next by tapping the pedal as you suggested Greg. Brilliant right?

But when I tried to record the foot press in sequencer mode to confirm what channel the "increment value" foot switch was coming in on, nothing was recorded anywhere. I tried inserting the CC with a variety of values on a MIDI track on channel 96 and nothing advanced even though when I hit the foot switch it would.

Amazingly, when I dug into the on-screen manual regarding pedal and switch assignments I find buried about 4 screens down that "increment value" (and I think song start/stop) commands HAVE BEEN PROGRAMED BY KORG TO BE IGNORED WHEN SENT FROM THE INTERNAL SEQUENCER OR KARMA. What the heck...? It only accepts them from an outside MIDI source. So for some crazy reason they have deliberately programmed functionality that was present in their old technology out of what should be the workhorse keyboard in a person's rig. I don't get it...

At this point I've ordered the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI foot pedal controller in order to be able to program foot pedal presses remotely and as a bonus will have a volume pedal as well. It's not ideal but it seems to be the best I can do given that I love the sounds and the functionality of the sequencer mode otherwise.

Pete, at least for me the copy and pasting of multiple songs together into one MIDI file is more work than its worth because every week is a one-off set list for that one church service only and my tunes are often using as many as 10 tracks. If I were back playing clubs 5 nights a week it would be worth the time to set medleys up in that way but to put that much additional work in every week isn't worth the time and effort. Really, there's no reason why a new top-of-the-line keyboard should have less functionality than a two-decade-old product by the same manufacturer.

Does anybody from the Korg ever look at these conversations and consider the variety of needs of the consumer?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaryAsaph wrote:

Does anybody from the Korg ever look at these conversations and consider the variety of needs of the consumer?


I think Korgs main priority for looking at a post is to see if there is a new OS
bug or if something is not well documented.

IOW, especially with the SEQ don't expect much of anything.

I suspect they don't have the time to digest the various posts.

There are cases where a suggestion made it to a new model.

I believe Korg is very smart and they are ahead of the market.

There has to be a tangible benefit to a Korg ( or roland, etc) to add a new feature.

Thats my opinion after being here for many years.
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GaryAsaph



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg,
I don't mean to be dense, but I've notice a couple different posts as I've browsed that mention the SEQ being a low priority to Korg. Why are people saying this since that is one of the three key functions of a Workstation?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaryAsaph wrote:
Greg,
I don't mean to be dense, but I've notice a couple different posts as I've browsed that mention the SEQ being a low priority to Korg. Why are people saying this since that is one of the three key functions of a Workstation?


long time Kronos owners and w/s owners have a perspective built up over several years. And there are a few things going on.

Speaking for myself, I love the SEQ. Its my song writing partner. I have commented about running into limits primarily due to polyphony. 175 note is actually huge, but 16 hungry tracks w FX can push it.

And us MBP owners have been side swiped by Apple Sierra where it no longer adequately recognized Kronos via USB. we are forced into getting an audio interface.

And once all these bridges are crossed, I feel more motivated to transition to a DAW. Other major keyboard cos have excellent DAW integration.

Going to a DAW is nothing new for recording but there are some definite benefits. Other posters are expecting DAW like features on the SEQ or even M3
SEQ features on the Kronos.

After +6 yrs, I am not sure some , that are expecting SEQ improvements are going to be patient. You could be picking up on that.

Keep in mind SEQ's and workstations have been around for + 20 years.

Until Kronos, it was felt that W/s were going to fade as a keyboard. Korg revived
this platform with Kronos. Its been tremendous , as we can all see.
And the SEQ is very useful and satisfying for the most part.

However, many years are going by. Due to advancing tech and various software products, and other platforms, there are other choices, which have their strong points.

Now if you are new to Kronos and a gigging keyboardist, most of the above is not super important. How you use Kronos , a very flexible keyboard, varies from person to person.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaryAsaph wrote:


Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on the chain play workaround. Unfortunately, it turns out that the Kronos is WAY worse in this area than I had imagined. There is NO automation available.

Greg, as I feared, you need two foot pedals to make things work (song advance & song start/stop). The Kronos foot switch input can be programed to do one or the other. Unfortunately, the foot pedal input does not allow you to program either of those commands so you're still stuck right next to the keyboard to press advance or start/stop by hand - very inconvenient if you're trying to play guitar from a distance at the same time.



Go over to Global/mid

There are some check boxes for " Start Stop Out "

I am not sure what they do but its worth a try for SEQ and the pedal
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