Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

So I understand that wind instruments is the Kronos weakness
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hag01



Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:20 am    Post subject: So I understand that wind instruments is the Kronos weakness Reply with quote

My impression from reading about the Kronos and listen to demos is that brass and woodwinds are the weak point of the Kronos.
Do you think that adding some external libraries to the Kronos can fill this hole, for orchestral and pop\jazz and other various wind instruments?
And what is the difference between having samples like the samples on the external libraries, and having an "engine", like the acoustic piano engine of the Kronos for example?
Anyway, I wish Korg will release next generation Kronos this NAMM with a dedicated wind instrument engine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gargamel314
Platinum Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1104
Location: Carneys Point, NJ

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EXs3 library originally for the OASYS is on the Kronos's SSD, but it doesn't load by default, and none of the programs or combis are part of the preload data, you have to load them yourself. This library is excellent for the brass sounds, but I would agree that the woodwind sounds are a little hit or miss. As a woodwind player myself, I have to question what the sound designers were going for with some of these samples. The French Horns are a little lacking, but the multisamples are there, you just need the right programs and IFX to make them sound good.

The clarinet is an abysmal failure. It really sounds like a sax player is playing a clarinet and adding heavy vibrato (not common practice at all with clarinet players), and is using the wrong embraceor while playing a clarinet. The stock clarinet sample is much, much more realistic sounding, but has no character or depth to it.

The sax sounds are good, but inconsistent. For example, there is a F alto sax program, but no mf alto sax, while there's a mf Tenor sax, but no f Tenor sax.

The double reed and flute sounds are very good, though. Sometimes I want a little more richness from the oboe, but they are all very realistic sounds with a lot of character.

If you peruse the stock Kronos woodwind and brass programs, none of them utilize EXs3, but some of them use multisamples very SIMILAR to what's in EXs3. It's almost like some of that data was reused in the ROM expansion libraries. They also added some really nice trumpet, trombone, and French horn programs that sound great. Many of them use the lesser quality stock multisamples also, so EXs3 really adds if you use a lot of orchestral sounds.



The problem is, there are no other 3rd party brass & woodwind libraries available. Tons of string, piano, and percussion libraries, but no brass or woodwinds, so we are stuck with EXs3 and the stock Kronos sample data.
_________________
Korg Kronos-61, 01/Wfd, M3, SONAR Pro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 6010
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: So I understand that wind instruments is the Kronos weak Reply with quote

hag01 wrote:
My impression from reading about the Kronos and listen to demos is that brass and woodwinds are the weak point of the Kronos.
Do you think that adding some external libraries to the Kronos can fill this hole, for orchestral and pop\jazz and other various wind instruments?
And what is the difference between having samples like the samples on the external libraries, and having an "engine", like the acoustic piano engine of the Kronos for example?
Anyway, I wish Korg will release next generation Kronos this NAMM with a dedicated wind instrument engine.


weak compared to....... ? Do you own a Kronos ? Its not clear.

keep in mind Kronos is still a synth. Its not a monster sample lib at every instrument group.

I agree , in that some of the instruments are average- good. For example, I make good use of the trumpets in my recorded songs.
With sax , closer to average

The problem we have is the difficulty in achieving articulation with the instruments. Plus, I am not a sax player. I just do my best to copy only the basic
sax styles. Aggressive sax playing in jazz groups I can't touch , realistically.

I would take some time before you address what I consider average to good.
A lot depends on your actual context and what you are doing with Kronos.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. MBP
Achieve your musical dreams Smile


Last edited by GregC on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gargamel314
Platinum Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 1104
Location: Carneys Point, NJ

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: So I understand that wind instruments is the Kronos weak Reply with quote

hag01 wrote:
And what is the difference between having samples like the samples on the external libraries, and having an "engine", like the acoustic piano engine of the Kronos for example?


The difference is the sound that's produced. HD-1 engine is completely reliant on multisamples to make its sound. This makes for very realistic, imitative sound, but there are limits to what you can do with HD-1 and its multisamples. For example, take a stock trumpet sound. You can mess with the filters, EG, FX, but it's mostly going to sound like a trumpet unless you change up the multisamples, and then you're limited to whatever multisamples you have.

A physical modeling engine such as STR-1 actually creates a sound from scratch. It is meant to electronically simulate the act of plucking a string. It does this without using samples, and simulating physics. The difference here is, you can get some really outlandish sounds because the STR-1 engine isn't limited to multisamples, it is a true synthesizer, and actually creates sound, as do most of the other engines.

The SGX engine still relies on multisamples, but you could consider it a very specialized version of HD-1, where it applies much different parameters to the multisamples than the HD-1 programs do. So instead of the standard pitch, filter, and amp EGs and LFOs, you get parameters specific to making piano sounds, like Damper resonance, and Lid position.

When I was in college, I remember writing a paper on physical modeling synthesizers (from the 90's) that emulated brass instruments and flutes. They weren't very sophisticated, but it's pretty cool that they are a thing. You could emulate the buzzing of lips against a mouthpiece and simulate pipe length and timbre, etc., or make it vault up an octave like a flute if you blow too hard into a wind controller. Korg could design one for the Kronos or a new workstation in the future, who knows.
_________________
Korg Kronos-61, 01/Wfd, M3, SONAR Pro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gunnar



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 46
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: So I understand that wind instruments is the Kronos weak Reply with quote

Gargamel314 wrote:

When I was in college, I remember writing a paper on physical modeling synthesizers (from the 90's) that emulated brass instruments and flutes. They weren't very sophisticated, but it's pretty cool that they are a thing. You could emulate the buzzing of lips against a mouthpiece and simulate pipe length and timbre, etc., or make it vault up an octave like a flute if you blow too hard into a wind controller. Korg could design one for the Kronos or a new workstation in the future, who knows.


Hah, I remember drooling over the Yamaha VL1 when it came out :) I really wanted one, but it was far, far outside my budget at the time.

As for modelling vs samples, it is also about control you get. With an engine, because you can shape the sound any which way the engine opens up for, you can assign controllers and make a lot of interesting stuff happen as you play.
_________________
Gear: Korg Kronos 2 73, Arturia Microbrute, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Ibanez RG320DXFM Guitar, ESP Viper 254FM Bass, Blackstar HT-1
Software: Reaper, EZ Drummer
Previous: Korg X3, Roland RD-700, Novation Nova
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-139189225
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amit
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 780
Location: New Delhi, India

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try adding a breath controller to your arsenal. Better yet a controller like an AKAI EWI (USB or otherwise),
That is where the expression lies. What good a sound engine would do if you can't express with it.

I have few wind plugins on PC that come to life with the EWI.
_________________
DX7-MOD-7 Patches | Korg Related Content
iPad Pro 12.9 256GB, iPad 2, etc
Korg Kronos 2 61, Korg PA600, Novation Sl 49 MK II, Waldorf Pulse 2, Novation Circuit,EWI USB, Graphite 49,Nano key Studio, BeatStep Pro,Zoom MS-70CDR,MicroKontrol,KLC, Korg DS-1H, Korg EXP-2,Roland DP-10, Nanopad 2, TEcontrol BBC2
Ibanez S470 with SD pups, Prs Korina with SD JB set pups ,Squier CV 60's Strat,VHT Special 6 Ultra,Blackstar HT1R 1W ,Roland Cube 30x,Seymour Duncan TT Classic, Nux-Green OD & EQ, Catlinbread DLS MKIII, Steinberg UR44,Yamaha MG10XU, Behringer UltraG DI, Presonus Eris E5 ,Epiphone Acoustic, Aria Jazz Bass, SM57, Rode NT-1,M11
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Liviou2004
Full Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 183
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you, I don't find many good brass instruments in the Kronos. That doesn't mean it's unable to reproduce them, but no one has really worked on a professional brass sound bank (except the link I give bellow).
Just look at the huge piano library for SGX-2 ! We get there a very good piano sound. And think a piano sound is far, far simpler than a saxo sound, for example. So, imagine, the weight of a saxo sample bank !

Many people speak of the VL-1 as a kind of Graal ! But listen a true saxo, side by side with a VL-1 saxo ! I've never has been convinced.

As for many instruments, it's easier to reproduce a sax ensemble than a sax solo.
If you are close to a sax or clarinet player, you can hear many sounds as the breath, and mechanical sounds that blend together with the note itself. The sound structure is so complex that it's rather impossible to reproduce it on the synthesizer. Though, this is all this complexity that made us saying :"ah, yes, no doubt, it's a saxophone".

Knowing that, we just have to enjoy an approximative saxophone, or clarinet and so on.

Gargamel314 wrote:
The problem is, there are no other 3rd party brass & woodwind libraries available. Tons of string, piano, and percussion libraries, but no brass or woodwinds, so we are stuck with EXs3 and the stock Kronos sample data.


Yes, there are some third party sound banks that contain many brass sounds. Just give a look at EXS-50 Karo Bank in Shopkorg : https://shop.korg.com/Services/Kronos_Sounds/docs/EXS50.pdf
I've never tried it, but just downloaded. I will tell you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Full Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 183
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, after trying this sound bank, I must say I don't know what to think about it.
5 full banks, from U-AA to U-EE. But only the two first are new and based on loaded and original samples. Within these two banks, some sounds only are brass or woodwinds sounds.
The three other banks are based on EXs3 or rom samples.
In conclusion, unless I did a mistake, 249 $ for this bank : I don't understand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 6010
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
well, after trying this sound bank, I must say I don't know what to think about it.
5 full banks, from U-AA to U-EE. But only the two first are new and based on loaded and original samples. Within these two banks, some sounds only are brass or woodwinds sounds.
The three other banks are based on EXs3 or rom samples.
In conclusion, unless I did a mistake, 249 $ for this bank : I don't understand.


I hunted for Sax sounds and did the demo. Concluded that Sax was not greatly improved.

I am not sure alto/tenor Sax can be duplicated. Baritone is easier. The sax sounds I listen to are Brecker Bros, fusion jazz groups, etc. Very strong solo sax work.

I agree with you, we just have to get by with an approximate. Which is why I consider Kronos sax(reed), trumpet (brass) sounds as ranging from average to good.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. MBP
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pete.m
Full Member


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I'd ever use brass or woodwind sounds from a synth, except possibly way down in a mix as a vaguely-identifiable texture, and certainly never as an upfront solo instrument. Why would you? Air and breath are the defining elements, and synths don't have them. I've never used a breath controller, though - maybe that would work...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leonh
Junior Member


Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 83
Location: Hadleigh UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok guys this "inferior"sounds on Kronos are inferior to which keyboard exactly if you don't mind so I can get those samples if possible or spend thousands extra on buying a real brass or trombone ect Very Happy .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amit
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 780
Location: New Delhi, India

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete.m wrote:
I don't think I'd ever use brass or woodwind sounds from a synth, except possibly way down in a mix as a vaguely-identifiable texture, and certainly never as an upfront solo instrument. Why would you? Air and breath are the defining elements, and synths don't have them. I've never used a breath controller, though - maybe that would work...


It's a just a virtual synth with keyboard controller.


_________________
DX7-MOD-7 Patches | Korg Related Content
iPad Pro 12.9 256GB, iPad 2, etc
Korg Kronos 2 61, Korg PA600, Novation Sl 49 MK II, Waldorf Pulse 2, Novation Circuit,EWI USB, Graphite 49,Nano key Studio, BeatStep Pro,Zoom MS-70CDR,MicroKontrol,KLC, Korg DS-1H, Korg EXP-2,Roland DP-10, Nanopad 2, TEcontrol BBC2
Ibanez S470 with SD pups, Prs Korina with SD JB set pups ,Squier CV 60's Strat,VHT Special 6 Ultra,Blackstar HT1R 1W ,Roland Cube 30x,Seymour Duncan TT Classic, Nux-Green OD & EQ, Catlinbread DLS MKIII, Steinberg UR44,Yamaha MG10XU, Behringer UltraG DI, Presonus Eris E5 ,Epiphone Acoustic, Aria Jazz Bass, SM57, Rode NT-1,M11
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 6010
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete.m wrote:
I don't think I'd ever use brass or woodwind sounds from a synth, except possibly way down in a mix as a vaguely-identifiable texture, and certainly never as an upfront solo instrument. Why would you? Air and breath are the defining elements, and synths don't have them. I've never used a breath controller, though - maybe that would work...


I would not say never.

Jump to .38 seconds to hear how I used a Kronos sax as lead/melody

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/body-heat-104wav

I have another tune where a Kronos sax and trumpet are effective.

In this context, the Kronos instruments are effective.

Sure, if one had a $50,000 studio , that would be ideal. But thats not realistic.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. MBP
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
amit
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 780
Location: New Delhi, India

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with kronos engine and any many others is that the velocity is hardwired.

for example if you could Tie velocity to certain incoming CC it would be much more expressive. I am not talking just the volume expression here but sample switching as well, that in a combi with different articulations mapped would be a good starting point for breath/wind controllers on Kronos, unless the controller like EWI itself sends the notes and velocity.

It has to be a dedicated engine, perhaps some future synth from Korg may address that.
_________________
DX7-MOD-7 Patches | Korg Related Content
iPad Pro 12.9 256GB, iPad 2, etc
Korg Kronos 2 61, Korg PA600, Novation Sl 49 MK II, Waldorf Pulse 2, Novation Circuit,EWI USB, Graphite 49,Nano key Studio, BeatStep Pro,Zoom MS-70CDR,MicroKontrol,KLC, Korg DS-1H, Korg EXP-2,Roland DP-10, Nanopad 2, TEcontrol BBC2
Ibanez S470 with SD pups, Prs Korina with SD JB set pups ,Squier CV 60's Strat,VHT Special 6 Ultra,Blackstar HT1R 1W ,Roland Cube 30x,Seymour Duncan TT Classic, Nux-Green OD & EQ, Catlinbread DLS MKIII, Steinberg UR44,Yamaha MG10XU, Behringer UltraG DI, Presonus Eris E5 ,Epiphone Acoustic, Aria Jazz Bass, SM57, Rode NT-1,M11
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Liviou2004
Full Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 183
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amit wrote:
The problem with kronos engine and any many others is that the velocity is hardwired.
for example if you could Tie velocity to certain incoming CC it would be much more expressive.


1°) Velocity is one of AMS source. So it can be modulated itself through AMS Mixer or, in some cases, with another AMS.

2°) Velocity is received and transmitted in MIDI by Kronos : it is incorporated in Note On message.

Note-on [9n, kk, vv] (n: channel, kk: note number, vv: velocity)
See page 1145 of the Parameters Guide.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group