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Tweaking Programs while using Sequencer

 
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blazerunner
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Joined: 15 Nov 2017
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2022 12:56 am    Post subject: Tweaking Programs while using Sequencer Reply with quote

Hello again,

Maybe I over looked this... but is there a way to adjust a programs sounds while working inside the sequencer?

For example I want to adjust a Harp or a violin or synth. I want to be able to pull up the sound and tweak the ADSR to customize it perfectly for the sequence I'm working on.

Is there a way to do that? or do I have to exit the sequencer and go into the program adjust the sound... then save the sound... then go back into the sequencer and then load the PGM I just tweaked by selecting it for use on the track I'm working on.

I'm just curious because I have to be missing something here?

Any and all help appreciated! Thanks.
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pete.m
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 482

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not able to test it for myself at the moment, but I think there might be a way.
P.1102 and 1106 of the manual lists the MIDI CCs, and CCs 70, 72, 73 and 75 can alter the ADSR parameters for either Filter or Amp EGs.

On P 1105, it explains that CCs 70-79 can be assigned to knobs 5-8. A value of 64 will normally match whatever value the program is set to. Any CC modulations you make in Sequencer mode aren't saved back into the program.

Looks like there may be one or two variations depending on the program type, and they are specified on P.1106-8, but it certainly looks possible for six of the nine engines. Sorry I'm not able to test it out myself before suggesting it to you, but I hope it helps.
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HUBA



Joined: 10 May 2022
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, it's not possible to tweak a program while listening to it in the intended context of a sequence where it's accompanied with other sounds/programs??
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pete.m
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you're getting confused. There are dozens of ways in which you can easily mess with programs in Sequencer mode - no problem there. This post is specifically about altering the Amp EG's ADSR parameters during a sequence.
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HUBA



Joined: 10 May 2022
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete.m wrote:
No, you're getting confused. There are dozens of ways in which you can easily mess with programs in Sequencer mode - no problem there. This post is specifically about altering the Amp EG's ADSR parameters during a sequence.


Oh ok. Yeah I thought it sounded strange that this wouldn't be possible. I would expect it to be straight forward to move any place and edit anything currently displayed by the screen while having the sequencer playing.(?)

I guess the OP is asking about whether it's possible to adjust the envelopes without having to jump to the mode where they're visible on the screen.(?)

So I take it then that it's indeed very possible to adjust and save just about anything including envelope settings while the sequencer is running, but in order to do so without also having to jump into the corresponding mode you'd have to assigning the specific MIDI CC# for those functions to physical knobs and then you could adjust envelopes even if you're in another mode that's not in any way related to where those envelopes are located. Would that be correct?
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pete.m
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Huba,

Yes, you're right. As long as the ADSR settings that I mentioned can be altered in the way I think they can (still haven't done it myself yet), then it's fair to say that you can alter pretty much all you want while in Sequencer mode. Blazerunner's question was a little unusual, in that I guess most people are used to altering everything except the ADSR in a Sequence. I hadn't thought of it anyway, and it's an interesting idea that I'd like to try. Thanks, Blazerunner!

One thing I've learned about the Kronos is that there is often more than one way of getting where you need to go, and you'll gradually figure what suits you best.

For myself, 95% of what I do is in Sequencer mode, and I find it very flexible. I can alter whatever I need by a number of means, including the following;
1. Assigning knobs, sliders, vector, pitch/mod wheel, or ribbon.
2. Recording changes in real time - including pan, volume, EQ, pitch, effects settings (including changing the effects on individual tracks), etc - which are then recorded as events that I can alter later.
3. Inserting MIDI events, CCs, Program Changes, Bends etc directly into the Event Edit page.

As I mentioned before, the alterations you make to a program in Sequencer mode won't alter the program itself. You need to be in Program mode to make permanent changes to a program. I never use the combis, and so I don't know what happens there.
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blazerunner
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Joined: 15 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello!

Thank for all the replies I truly appreciate all the help. Yes I'm trying to adjust the sound design for the synth I selected to fit in with the song I created in the sequencer using the basic ADSR stuff and all that jazz.

I sometimes find that the Kronos synths are beautiful but sometimes too "expressive" and I try to tweak them to fit in better with the song.

I recall long ago when I purchased the keyboard and fooled around with it I was able to use the knobs to play with a synth I had selected. I didn't know if that was a fluke or what since I later came to realize the knobs do different things depending on what program you have selected.

But also I learned the pitfall that I couldn't see what I was doing to the program. Which for what I create is a big no no since I write down all the sound design patch parameters in my notebook and I need that info for later work.

But it is indeed a bit difficult trying to create or alter a program for a specific sound in the sequencer because it's lost unless you're out of the sequencer and in PGM mode itself as far as I know. I also have to Write the PGM. Which maybe I'm doing something wrong but it doesn't save to global but loads with the song once it's saved to it.

I don't know the Kronos is a bit of a mess in some places you think it wouldn't be. I was hoping there was a more precision way to work/edit programs on screen in the sequencer.

Sometimes there's a lot going on and you just need to "tame" one sound by adjusting the ADSR. Also if you do something like "Quantize" that can also throw off the ADSR. Like for example on some patches the Release time will be cut off of the Attack will be too aggressive so you have to go back in and "adjust" the synth to counter it but it's a lot of Screen flipping.

I've been going into the PGM window... adjusting the patch... then saving it... then loading it into the sequencer track... and wash rinse repeating till it's perfect. I was hoping that I was just being a dummy and there was a smoother way to do all of that.

Like "Blazerunner you fool don't you know all you have to do is press this tab and it will show you all that stuff without leaving hte sequencer" I had my fingers crossed for that reply hahahaha Laughing


I appreciate your helpful information I will try some of your techniques. There's always room for a guy like me to learn and improve.

There's another tool on the Kronos sequencer that I've been using to also help shape the sound your working on and it's the vector joystick.

You can shape the sound to be yield towards the softer or harsher tones in PGM without going into the ADSR to adjust it. That has helped me modulate the sound sometimes. BUT it's also very buggy when you try to record its movements into the sequencer.

There are limitations to what it can and can't do but none of it is mentioned in any of the manuals. I thought Korg would fix it in an update but I don't think enough people would find the bug unless they were "really really" getting down with the sequencer. It only appears after you use certain automation features on other tracks.
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pete.m
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Blazerunner - your posts are always interesting. I haven't experienced those bugs you mention, but then my way of taming sounds is far more basic and inexact than yours. I just tend to shave bits of EQ or alter volume levels or effects during specific moments when things aren't sounding quite how I think they should. I suppose that removing certain frequencies by writing in EQ changes in real-time is my most regular way of resolving these issues, a bit like riding the mix.

I can see how being able to save new versions of programs while in Sequencer mode would be quite a help to you. Fingers crossed that it can happen one day. I suppose that a limited workaround for you might be to create a couple of variants on the original program that are roughly in the zone you're aiming for in different sections, switch between them by inserting Program Changes at the appropriate point and then do your sculpting, but it would still be a bit long-winded for you.

Hope you can manipulate the ADSRs to your advantage, anyway. That'd be something.

All the best.
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HUBA



Joined: 10 May 2022
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete.m wrote:
Hi Huba,

Yes, you're right. As long as the ADSR settings that I mentioned can be altered in the way I think they can (still haven't done it myself yet), then it's fair to say that you can alter pretty much all you want while in Sequencer mode. Blazerunner's question was a little unusual, in that I guess most people are used to altering everything except the ADSR in a Sequence. I hadn't thought of it anyway, and it's an interesting idea that I'd like to try. Thanks, Blazerunner!


Thanks for the helful response. Although it may depend a lot on what style of music you're creating, being able to adjust envelope settings while different parts play together is crucial for dance oriented electronic music like techno and the likes so I can very much relate to the concern.

pete.m wrote:
As I mentioned before, the alterations you make to a program in Sequencer mode won't alter the program itself. You need to be in Program mode to make permanent changes to a program. I never use the combis, and so I don't know what happens there.


Well I have just recently come to realize how powerful the Kronos is and have started to investigate it only a couple of days ago so I may be misunderstanding some things and sorry if that's the case, but unless it's possible somehow to adjust the settings of a program, including ADSR, while hearing it play along with other sounds/parts/programs and being able to somehow save those adjustments, then I can say right now the Kronos isn't for me. Truly hope my impression is wrong because the Kronos looks extremely capable in most other aspects so it would be a shame if this was the case. Please tell me I'm wrong. (And please tell me if I'm right too so I don't waste more time researching something I can't make use of anyway)

Thanks in advance for being patient and apologies to Blazerunner for semi derailing the thread Embarassed
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pete.m
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Huba,

No need to apologise - you're making interesting points and besides, we've all got stuff to learn about the Kronos no matter how long we've been using it. Because I don't make dance music, I had no idea of the usefulness of altering ADSRs in Sequence mode. Maybe Blazerunner would be a better person to comment on it than me. I hope to experiment a bit with the technique now, just to see where it might lead with my own genre-less music.

As I said before, I haven't yet been able to try that particular thing for myself and, for a number of reasons, I won't be able to for a couple of weeks yet. But my reading of it is that the core program itself - the version represented in Program Mode - will remain unaltered, but that the real-time edits you do to a program you're using in Sequence mode should be recorded in the normal way and will then be reproduced faithfully when you return to your song. You get the best of both worlds, I think, being able to alter the program for one specific song but still having the original to call upon.

I explained also the way in which I would deal with some of the issues in a mix, varying EQ, filtering and track volumes and pans just so individual sounds sit right in the mix, and they might be additional possibilities for you. I encourage you to just play around and experiment - you won't be disappointed, I'm sure. It will take you a while to really get the measure of it. One additional thing that I sometimes do is to resample parts of songs, sculpting those sections with further internal or external effects or tweaking. But that's a whole other topic.

If you're new to the Kronos, you need to allow yourself a few months to really get to grips with it. In my opinion, it's not a difficult machine to work with, but it runs very deep because it can do so much. So, in spite of having been able to make music on it immediately without much difficulty, years later I still haven't discovered all the things it can do and I don't feel restricted by it.
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 3758

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos allows for the extensive use of AMS, or Alternate Modulation Sources to modifiy sonic behaviour so, whilst a Program or Timbre in a Combi, will have a set of parameter values for Amplitude and Time (and also for Curve) each of the ADSR components, can be set to respond to modulation by AMS e.g. Knob 6 can be set to modulate the ADSR Amplitudes by user settable amounts, which may be positive or negative, Knob 7 could be used to alter the Time of each of these. In fact, the ADSR Times can have up to three separate AMS, each influencing the Times of the different segments by different amounts.

Likewise, filter characteristics, and LFO behaviours can also be influenced by AMS. And LFOs themselves can be set as AMS, plus there are two AMS mixers, which arithmetically combine individual AMS sources to produce another AMS sources.

AMS is not a single "thing" in the Kronos. There are multiple AMS sources, and there are many places where these can be set to exert a modulating effect. Hope that makes sense.

.
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