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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:11 pm Post subject: problems with Pa1000 Fill ins
After a thorough search, I found out that the manual won't address the subject of normal sequencer operation at all.
On page 54 it does say "Pa1000 CAN automatically play a matching fill..." when going between elements, saying that a " Fill is automatically selected" FOR me. I continued reading to get to the part where I GET TO SELECT what fill and when to use it, just like anyone else who arranges music. After all, this is a PROFESSIONAL ARRANGER and not a toy, right?
I still had hope when, on page 59, it said again in plain language " IF YOU LIKE, you can LET Pa1000 automatically choose a Fill...". Great. I still have a choice, right? So I kept reading.
Page 60 starts by saying that if I don't want to use their special Auto fill "feature" I can turn it off. But what about my fills. I cant arrange anything without being able to book MY CHOICE of fills on command.
Ah yes, finally! The oft cited AUTO FILL MODE selector in GLOBAL MODE PREFERENCES! Surely one of these will fix the problem. It gives three choices.
SMART MODE - It's a cute toy but it's more for the entertainment of the non-musician. A little out of place on a "professional Arranger"
TARGET VARIATION - This mode COULD be useful to SOMEONE so if you want to build it in as an extra, ...ok But it's entirely unnecessary.
CURRENT VARIATION - This should be the one that behaves like a normal sequencer, and it's the one I've tried the most. But it doesn't. What's missing is a "basic" or "normal" setting, so that it can at least perform the duties of a basic "professional arranger". For instance:
If I were t play Var1 and tap the fill button, it should play fill 1 and return to the current Var1 (one tap). If I were to tap the fill and then immediately tap Var2, the fill should transition to Var2(two taps). In fact I should be able to book any target loop I want with a quick second tap. This is the behavior of a properly functioning sequencer.
What actually does happen is that when I tap Var2 for Fill2 nothing happens. No fill whatsoever. Except when I go from VAR 3 or 4 BACK to VAR2, then it TRIGGERS. And I'm set to CURRENT VARIATION MODE. Makes no sense. Without a salesman to baffle us, we would simply say "it's broken!"
Triggering the fill of your choice is among the most basic functions of a sequencer on arrangers and workstations. I've seen enough comments and questions here and elsewhere to know that without this capability, users are having trouble arranging music on the PA 1000. In addition, ostensibly knowledgeable persons wont directly answer the question, only holding up a manual saying "keep trying, you just ain't figured it out yet." All I know is that if someone sells these for a living, they need to have a direct answer whether the Pa1000 can do this or not. Plain and simple.
A Yamaha PSR510 did it in 1995 for $500 with a novice at the controls. Since then, Korg has "Improved" as you say, the technology beyond it's usefulness and even salesmen don't know if it works or not. Does that constitute a joke? Or just too smart by half? The Pa1000 cost 300% more and it still doesn't do the job.
Personally, I'm just speculating here, but as I look at the controls and implementation and the fact that it does indeed have fill options, the capability to fill normally should be there. I think that it has actually been there all along but IT HAS BEEN DISABLED[?] for $ome my$teriou$ un$tated rea$on.
Perhaps after Korgs promoters ignore the subject and obfuscate for long enough, we'll all go out and do what they wanted us to do all along. Throw our hands in the air, surrender, and spend 600% more for a Pa4x. Who cares what you do with your pa1000 after that, since they made almost $6000 selling you something worth a little more than my old cheap Yamaha.
Hyperspace buttons are for arcade games. You push the button and who knows[?] where you end up. This ... "feature", is not an improvement, it's a bug, design flaw, mistake or POSSIBLY strategy to increase the bottom line at any cost. It absolutely doesn't belong on an Arranger since it prevents users from arranging what they want.
To all commenters asking about this problem, it looks as if you may have to replace you keyboard again. I doubt Korg is going to fix it for you.
Joined: 27 Jan 2014 Posts: 1725 Location: Hilton Head Island, SC
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:06 am Post subject:
Trying to help in here is pointless.
Only 1 thing do add, Pa4x has all you need, Pa1000 is stripped version design for people who for some reason can't or won't pay prize of flagship.
Everybody before buying something should read deeply manual and study opinions about product,... especially professional users.
Pa1000 has exactly Fills how developers design made it, is maybe not perfect, maybe is even for reason, but is it what is it.
Take it or leave it.
Stop complain about something,..... unless you find error.
Many musicians love and enjoy playing on Pa1000, .... and many keep trolling excellent products, trying to find any excuse.
For anybody feel like being offended, please don't, this is nothing personal to anybody....... just conclusion. _________________ Nemik
Korg Kronos2-61, Korg Pa600, Novation UltraNova, Akai Professional MPK49, Akai Professional MPK225 , Alesis QX-49, APC25 Keys, Launchpad MK2, Korg nanoPad2
MOTU Midi Express XT, FCB1010 with UnO, Behringer X2222 USB, TASCAM Model 24 Mixer, Presonus AudioBox96, M-Track Plus
Fl Studio 12, Ableton Live 10 Suite.
Performers Heaven
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: problems with Pa1000 Fill Ins
Quote:
Trying to help in here is pointless.
[chuckle] Somehow I knew you would say that. Thanks for that.
It's not pointless. Do you repair defective keyboards?
Quote:
Only 1 thing do add, Pa4x has all you need, Pa1000 is stripped version design for people who for some reason can't or won't pay prize of flagship.
Thank you for that as well. It seems to confirm rather succinctly the point I made previously that:
Quote:
do what they wanted us to do all along. Throw our hands in the air, surrender, and spend 600% more for a Pa4x.
You have said almost exactly that. Thanks also for confirming that it takes a $4000 Korg Flagship to match the performance of a $500 low ended Yamaha that's 25 years old.
Quote:
Everybody before buying something should read deeply manual and study opinions about product,... especially professional users.
As I indicated before, I've reviewed the manual with it's 1066 pages. It's language avoided the subject of a plain generic fill mode all together, while offering additional modes "if you like", but not necessary. Who would have dreamed that it didn't have one. Ingeniously misleading. Especially since it's got the word "Professional" right on it.
Nevertheless, you are correct, ...right on cue and well said too. ...Buyer beware! Excellent advice. It's also a good tease to a customer after they buy one like I did.
Quote:
Pa1000 has exactly Fills how developers design made it, is maybe not perfect, maybe is even for reason, but is it what is it.
Take it or leave it. Wink
That quote makes an excellent review of the PA1000. In fact it should be printed on the front of the box. It would look great!
Quote:
Stop complain about something,..... unless you find error.
I didn't actually come to complain or to "troll" as you say, but only to relay my conclusions about the Fill mode since so many users like me can't reliably arrange on it. WE'VE ALL FOUND ERROR in the design. It turns out to be a real problem that's already becoming well known on the forums and the unit only just came out. Nowhere in all the questions have I seen a definitive answer if it has normal fill capability of not. That's very telling.
Quote:
Many musicians love and enjoy playing on Pa1000,
I suppose that could be true. The Pa1000 plays really nice and has great sounds. You can play it all day long. But you can have that along with auto accompaniment and a bag of chips for well under $1000. The question is can it be used as a PROFFESSIONAL ARRANGER, which is what it claims to be. The answer (unless one is a Korg Salesman) is No. Certainly not for the professional anyway. Because it doesn't have a basic FILL MODE.
Quote:
many keep trolling excellent products, trying to find any excuse.
For anybody feel like being offended, please don't, this is nothing personal to anybody....... just conclusion.
I'm not trolling. Whether it's an excellent product or not depends on who you are. Someone who sells them for a living might be inclined to say yes and " find any excuse" to defend them because, as you say, it's not "personal" . It's just business as usual. On the other hand, someone who bought one to arrange music professionally will probably say no.
As for me, I'm sending mine back. I'll probably have to pay a restocking fee since it's taken so long to figure out the problem. In the meantime, I'm upgrading to my old PSR510 that I got at Circuit City for $500 in the 90's. It has a fully functional sequencer!
Joined: 27 Jan 2014 Posts: 1725 Location: Hilton Head Island, SC
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:33 am Post subject:
BTW, every variation can have up to 6 CV, means with special programming you can record extra variation having fill on the end and fire this CV using custom Recognized Chord.
bottom line is always the way.
... also 150$ for foot controller and got all what you missing plus many more which even Pa4x not having on board. _________________ Nemik
Korg Kronos2-61, Korg Pa600, Novation UltraNova, Akai Professional MPK49, Akai Professional MPK225 , Alesis QX-49, APC25 Keys, Launchpad MK2, Korg nanoPad2
MOTU Midi Express XT, FCB1010 with UnO, Behringer X2222 USB, TASCAM Model 24 Mixer, Presonus AudioBox96, M-Track Plus
Fl Studio 12, Ableton Live 10 Suite.
Performers Heaven
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject: No Pa1000 Fill Ins
john jay wrote:
.. question is can it be used as a PROFESSIONAL ARRANGER, which is what it claims to be. The answer is No. Certainly not for the professional anyway. Because it doesn't have a basic FILL MODE ..
You are right - and someone do not want to understand why that is necessary for professional arranging. It is a shame not to be able to arrange fill-ins as style elements because this function is missing since Pa500/800/Pa3x and only is to find on flagship Pa4x.
The feature "AUTO-FILL" really has proven to be a powerful tool to prevent users from arranging music the way they want it (and did it before). So I think it is rather a trial to find an excuse, to claim Pa1000 is a "stripped version" designed for people, who for some reason can't or won't pay prize of flagship.
Also Pa500 and Pa800 was "not flagships but more professionals", as it was easy to to select that individual fill you want and trigger it, because this really is one of the basic sequencer application. Without direct access to select fill-ins styleplayer tends to toys without being able to be used as initutively as was the case with the previous models.
john jay wrote:
... for me, I'm sending mine back ..
I do not recommend that - better would try to use a small separate Midi-controller (like nanocontrol) to send program-changes on the special "control channel" to Pa1000. PrgChg 87 - 91 are triggering Fill-Ins and Break - some more remote controls additional are possible. _________________ kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
BTW, every variation can have up to 6 CV, means with special programming you can record extra variation having fill on the end and fire this CV using custom Recognized Chord.
Yes, I saw that, but I haven't learned how to work that part yet. That's a helpful clue to get around the problem. It would also greatly multiply how much use I can get out of a single STYLE ELEMENT. I'll investigate that. Thanks Nemik.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: No Pa1000 Fill Ins
Quote:
It is a shame not to be able to arrange fill-ins as style elements because this function is missing since Pa500/800/Pa3x and only is to find on flagship Pa4x.
Manufacturers are famous for this. Yamaha does it too. People generally think that the newer product or the next model in a series is a step up or improvement. As it turns out, they frequently remove useful features without saying so. It's the magic of music verses the witchcraft of marketing.
Quote:
john jay wrote:
... for me, I'm sending mine back ..
I do not recommend that - better would try to use a small separate Midi-controller (like nanocontrol) to send program-changes on the special "control channel" to Pa1000. PrgChg 87 - 91 are triggering Fill-Ins and Break - some more remote controls additional are possible.
Quote:
Thanks for a good tip siebenhirter. I'm gonna give that some thought. So far, all the local dealers and salespeople have tried to convince me to get a little 2 or 3 octave midi board (no sounds, just triggers) and do my music production on a laptop with production software. They say that's how it's done now, and that self contained keyboard studios like the ARRANGER are going extinct. I resist! But as I look around, I fear that's true. My problem (it's kinda silly) is that I like the portability of an all in one device (with built in speakers) where I can tuck it under my arm and go with it. I also spend a lot of time with it sitting in the middle of my bed while working it. Outboard devices make these things cumbersome. Nevertheless your suggestion is a good one under the circumstances and I probably need to get with the times. For that matter, I have a small room full of hardware packed away in boxes I should set up. A midi controller would make a nice addition to the studio.[/quote]
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There are no FillButtons. You can trigger variations.