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I understand the Karma "Level 1 - Karma Player" stuff pretty well, I think.
It seems like there is a huge amount of potential at Level 2 - Karma Tweaker. At the same time, it also feels a bit like shooting in the dark.
So, a few questions if you will.
Are there any learning resources you can point me at that I'm missing?
Is the "Level 2" stuff really mostly a matter of going through the 2000+ GEs on the Kronos and understanding what each one does?
Do people interested in this level of Karma programming generally just move on to Level 3 and pick up the Karma Kronos software?
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am not clear on the Karma levels, what they entail.
I went thru a gradual mostly self taught trial and error progression on learning
Karma.
My main priority is Song writing -Once I had enough knowledge of Karma, it is more of a process/priority to 'apply' it or utilize Karma for my material.
I am not studying advanced Karma just to study it. I have other priorities and projects.
My context is specific to what I want my Song results to be. For example, I enjoy Karma drums. A great feature.
Unfortunately there has been no further development of Karma by itself on Kronos, for 6 years.
its my choice to not sink into Karma software on mac/PC . Others will
gravitate to the software . Its a preference.
I probably would be more motivated to go deeper on Karma if there was a Karma upgrade ( inc new features, etc) for Kronos. Its not going to happen.
Thanks for the response! The "level" terminology is from some [possibly end-user-created?] articles on the karma-labs wiki. If I understand correctly:
Level 1 seems to be about understanding the overall architecture, adjusting the real time performance controls that are there, creating and modifying scenes, and changing the inputs and outputs. Generally learning to drive a performance that was built by someone else and tweak it a little.
Level 3 seems to be about things you can only do with the Karma software.
Level 2 is the more advanced things you can do with just the Kronos. E.g. replacing the GE, modifying the GE parameters that aren't tied to the performance controls, changing the performance controls, etc.
What is described as Level 2 is where it starts to get a little murky for me, I think because
a) You're confined to the (granted, many) GEs that Korg pre-programmed
b) You don't really have visibility into the whole GE. Just 32 parameters that were exposed
c) The documentation on the wiki doesn't look like it quite got finished and left off here...
Might just be a matter of spending some more time with it and getting a feel for the preset GEs and their params, I guess. I agree, I don't really want to spend 2 years getting a Ph.D in Karma for the heck of it. It does seem like a powerful tool that's well integrated into the K though, so I thought it was worth some time investment to get a better handle on what it can do for me.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:05 am Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
Thanks for the response! The "level" terminology is from some [possibly end-user-created?] articles on the karma-labs wiki. If I understand correctly:
Level 2 is the more advanced things you can do with just the Kronos. E.g. replacing the GE, modifying the GE parameters that aren't tied to the performance controls, changing the performance controls, etc.
What is described as Level 2 is where it starts to get a little murky for me, I think because
a) You're confined to the (granted, many) GEs that Korg pre-programmed
b) You don't really have visibility into the whole GE. Just 32 parameters that were exposed
c) The documentation on the wiki doesn't look like it quite got finished and left off here...
Might just be a matter of spending some more time with it and getting a feel for the preset GEs and their params, I guess. I agree, I don't really want to spend 2 years getting a Ph.D in Karma for the heck of it. It does seem like a powerful tool that's well integrated into the K though, so I thought it was worth some time investment to get a better handle on what it can do for me.
there is a recent utoube related to level 2. The guy did an ARP and dropped it into Karma for use. It was a cool workaround.
Its not difficult to 'replace ' 1 pattern with another. The sliders can be expiermeinted with to 'vary ' the Karma pattern.
Where many folks hit the wall is an attempt to deeply edit patterns on Karma/Kronos. One can get bogged down and finally realize the karma software is best to tame Karma.
Go thru some of the Combis ( if you have not already) and try to ' subtract ' elements of Karma and note what the scenes do.
Copy different modules into a blank Combi and play with it.
It is a consuming feature. I draw the line at using it as I see fit .
See how midi works with the 4 ' modules ( A B C D).
It goes on and on.
I don;t believe in Karma acting as an ' arranger' . It resembles that in some ways with chord recognition but I prefer to play parts/record them.
Thanks for the thoughts - took me a while to digest, but very helpful! Let me break down what I'm hoping to get out of Karma a bit further based on your reply.
Arranger
I'm not looking for Karma to be an arranger. Going into one of the combis where it's kind of acting like an arranger can be a fun way to kill an hour, but I'm not going to hit record and say "look at the song I wrote." I really prefer to arrange songs by hand. To me that's a big part of what makes it my song.
Note FX
By this I mean things like the arp GE models and things that could almost be considered part of sound design. I am interested in this kind of thing and what Karma can do for me here. I don't have a particular genre that I focus on. This is probably most useful in electronic genres, which I dabble in somtimes. The arp models seem fairly straightforward. For others, I guess it's just matter of trying them out and seeing what they do by default and how much you can tweak them?
Re-imagined Play Surface
The models that reconfigure the playing surface so that, for example, you can play a given patch more expressively than you could using the key bed in a normal mode. I'm definitely interested in this. For making acoustic type instruments sound more natural, but maybe also to apply them to synthetic instruments for new territory.
There's a video I've lost track of where someone uses the ribbon for a guitar strum. More of these kinds of things I'm talking about are covered pretty well in this 8 part video series that Stephen Kay did for the Oasys. I can't find a play list but the other parts should pop up YT suggestions from this link. I'd like to know more about customizing this type of GE.
https://youtu.be/2jJK18XWKo0
Drums
To date I have found three things that work for me for production drum tracks.
A real drummer. Sometimes me but if I can coerce a buddy that can actually play well, all the better.
Tapping out and arranging drum beats on something like a Beatstep Pro
Rayzoon Jamstix
The Kronos drum tracks are cool enough as a party starter but they are just repeating loops.
I'd like to be able to add Karma to the list above but I'm not really sure how to get there.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
T
Re-imagined Play Surface
The models that reconfigure the playing surface so that, for example, you can play a given patch more expressively than you could using the key bed in a normal mode. I'm definitely interested in this. For making acoustic type instruments sound more natural, but maybe also to apply them to synthetic instruments for new territory.
Drums
To date I have found three things that work for me for production drum tracks.
A real drummer. Sometimes me but if I can coerce a buddy that can actually play well, all the better.
Tapping out and arranging drum beats on something like a Beatstep Pro
Rayzoon Jamstix
The Kronos drum tracks are cool enough as a party starter but they are just repeating loops.
I'd like to be able to add Karma to the list above but I'm not really sure how to get there.
a bit more on your [b].
Kronos programs approach the unique feel of acoustic instruments, IMO. Acoustic guitars, sax, trumpet, violin.
There are sample and articulation limits to each group. There are 100's of sax sounds, 100's of trumpet sounds, and +1000 guitar sounds. Kronos does not cover this wide range.
However, its up to the keyboard musician to 'understand ' how to 'play ' the acoustic instrument.
Adding expression via pedal or joystick also helps the acoustic instrument presentation.
Bottom line, the instrument programs might get a song writer half way there. After that its up to the keyboard musician to play a convincing acoustic instrument on his Kronos.
I am older and not surprisingly I am drawn to material from the 70's/80's/90's
as a variety of acoustic instrument use was more common. Or so it seems .
[b] drums
drums/percussion are a top priority for my songs. You are correct- drum track (DT) is static. If you listen to some of the patterns they are more than 1 bar.
Some are 4 bar and have a riff or a roll , cymbal crash on the 4th bar.
I like the variety of Kronos drum kits. Even the ambient drum kits have an important role in my material.
In SEQ mode you can have a DT pattern ( lets say midi channel 10) and then accompany that with another kit on another channel by tapping out what you want to hear ( such as conga, cymbal splash, etc) . Plus I enjoy mixing
Karma drum scenes and DT. It sounds strong and convincing
I guess most have their own approach on percussion tracks. Its my opinion
the various percussion and kit options on Kronos are spicy.
I also have a drummer friend ( lives far away) evaluate my percussion work on my songs. It would be great to have a live drummer, for sure. But that involves all the logistics of schedule, studio space, recording, miss, etc, etc. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
Note FX
By this I mean things like the arp GE models and things that could almost be considered part of sound design. I am interested in this kind of thing and what Karma can do for me here. I don't have a particular genre that I focus on. This is probably most useful in electronic genres, which I dabble in somtimes. The arp models seem fairly straightforward. For others, I guess it's just matter of trying them out and seeing what they do by default and how much you can tweak them?
That's indeed a very powerful area of the KARMA possibilities that almost no one uses.
6 years ago i've posted an example how to use KARMA to take care of a part of the sound design. I think this will give you some inspiration how you can use it with your own ideas.
And that's not where it ends, you can also use KARMA to activate loops for instance (like imported wave drumloops) by sending a quarter or whole note to the loop, or for instance a vocal phrase that is sliced in seperate notes where you let karma randomize parts of the phrase, or even round robin wave sequenced sounds. When you think outside the box the creative possibilities are endless.
drums/percussion are a top priority for my songs. You are correct- drum track (DT) is static. If you listen to some of the patterns they are more than 1 bar.
Some are 4 bar and have a riff or a roll , cymbal crash on the 4th bar.
I like the variety of Kronos drum kits. Even the ambient drum kits have an important role in my material.
In SEQ mode you can have a DT pattern ( lets say midi channel 10) and then accompany that with another kit on another channel by tapping out what you want to hear ( such as conga, cymbal splash, etc) . Plus I enjoy mixing
Karma drum scenes and DT. It sounds strong and convincing
I guess most have their own approach on percussion tracks. Its my opinion
the various percussion and kit options on Kronos are spicy.
I also have a drummer friend ( lives far away) evaluate my percussion work on my songs. It would be great to have a live drummer, for sure. But that involves all the logistics of schedule, studio space, recording, miss, etc, etc.
I agree, the kits in the K are ace! They sound great. I've not done much of this where I have multiple kits going. But going through some of the combis where this is done - it's magic.
So for the DT, are you generally just taking those patterns recording them into the sequencer? Do you create "user" patterns? This workflow is kind of foreign to me I guess. I'll do some more experimentation with the Karma drum GEs. It sounds like there's some good stuff in there but I need to learn how to coerce it to do what I want.
QuiRobinez wrote:
That's indeed a very powerful area of the KARMA possibilities that almost no one uses.
6 years ago i've posted an example how to use KARMA to take care of a part of the sound design. I think this will give you some inspiration how you can use it with your own ideas.
And that's not where it ends, you can also use KARMA to activate loops for instance (like imported wave drumloops) by sending a quarter or whole note to the loop, or for instance a vocal phrase that is sliced in seperate notes where you let karma randomize parts of the phrase, or even round robin wave sequenced sounds. When you think outside the box the creative possibilities are endless.
Yes! This is exactly what I'm talking about. Here you've taken a good but fairly static sound and added all kinds of energy to it using Karma. Not so much that it's actually going to drive a song structure, but enough that it could really add some sizzle to a passage.
At a very high level I understand what you're doing here. It feels like there's a pretty big gap between reading the parameter and operations guides, and actually feeling like I can put Karma to work for me.
In fairness, I would probably feel the same way after reading the manual section on the AL-1 synth if I did not already have a solid understanding of analog synthesis. I do have that though, and there's plenty of material out there for learning about analog synthesis at least in a general sense that could be applied to the AL-1. With Karma, there's really no predicate. It only exists on a a couple of high end Korg and Yamaha workstations. So I'm not sure how to bridge the knowledge gap.
How did you get so good with it? Would having the Karma software help? It it just a matter of read the manual, go experiment, repeat 100 times?
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:38 am Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
With Karma, there's really no predicate. It only exists on a a couple of high end Korg and Yamaha workstations. So I'm not sure how to bridge the knowledge gap.
How did you get so good with it? Would having the Karma software help? It it just a matter of read the manual, go experiment, repeat 100 times?
There is only one person on earth that really knows how to use the KARMA engine, and that is the developer Stephen Kay. All the KARMA guides and anwers on the internet are based on information that Stephen has shared with the community, there is no other way to learn it.
Reading the manuals is not enough, they aren't specific enough. So if you really want to learn you have only one option:
- Read all topics on Karma-labs forum: http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/
- Read all the topics on the KARMA Wiki: http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/
That's the only way to learn KARMA.
I've stopped answering questions and sharing KARMA demos years ago, i have a huge collection of notes with all kind of KARMA tricks that i collected from the two sites above since i used the Original Red Karma workstation, but i didn't make any notes of where i got those notes from. Since i can't give a reference to the source if i answered the questions online, i decided to stop mentioning KARMA in all my videos and replies to avoid confusion. So that's why there aren't any new tips and tricks videos or posts about KARMA from me anymore.
But i still think that KARMA is a fantastic inspirational tool that can do fantastic things for your creative process, so it's definitely worth the time to read all the materials Stephen supplied to get familiar with the engine.
But to start with KARMA i would recommend to start with the basics and the programming of the 32 parameters on the kronos itself. That's more then enough power to keep you going for years and all the information is shared by Stephen on the KARMA Wiki site. The only limit in that case is your own imagination.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:57 am Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
drums/percussion are a top priority for my songs. You are correct- drum track (DT) is static. If you listen to some of the patterns they are more than 1 bar.
Some are 4 bar and have a riff or a roll , cymbal crash on the 4th bar.
I like the variety of Kronos drum kits. Even the ambient drum kits have an important role in my material.
In SEQ mode you can have a DT pattern ( lets say midi channel 10) and then accompany that with another kit on another channel by tapping out what you want to hear ( such as conga, cymbal splash, etc) . Plus I enjoy mixing
Karma drum scenes and DT. It sounds strong and convincing
I guess most have their own approach on percussion tracks. Its my opinion
the various percussion and kit options on Kronos are spicy.
etc.
I agree, the kits in the K are ace! They sound great. I've not done much of this where I have multiple kits going. But going through some of the combis where this is done - it's magic.
So for the DT, are you generally just taking those patterns recording them into the sequencer? Do you create "user" patterns? This workflow is kind of foreign to me I guess. I'll do some more experimentation with the Karma drum GEs. It sounds like there's some good stuff in there but I need to learn how to coerce it to do what I want.
[)
yes, my context for drums is in SEQ mode. If you are a song writer, you might get hooked on SEQ.
Say you are starting a New Song. You can assign an existing DT pattern in any midi track. Its probably a good habit to use midi ( program) track 10.
You can 'pick ' any program or drum kit into track 11, Start/REC Write and jam away on the keyboard. Its all midi. I guess you can call it a 'user pattern '.
You might notice the terminology is kind of loose. At some point, you have to get the keys, open the door, start the engine and drive the car and go places _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
I've stopped answering questions and sharing KARMA demos years ago, i have a huge collection of notes with all kind of KARMA tricks that i collected from the two sites above since i used the Original Red Karma workstation, but i didn't make any notes of where i got those notes from. Since i can't give a reference to the source if i answered the questions online, i decided to stop mentioning KARMA in all my videos and replies to avoid confusion. So that's why there aren't any new tips and tricks videos or posts about KARMA from me anymore.
But i still think that KARMA is a fantastic inspirational tool that can do fantastic things for your creative process, so it's definitely worth the time to read all the materials Stephen supplied to get familiar with the engine.
But to start with KARMA i would recommend to start with the basics and the programming of the 32 parameters on the kronos itself. That's more then enough power to keep you going for years and all the information is shared by Stephen on the KARMA Wiki site. The only limit in that case is your own imagination.
I hate to hear that you've stopped referencing KARMA. The videos you've made about the Kronos definitely contributed to my decision to get one and are a huge knowledge increase now that I have one! But I understand and appreciate where you're coming from with that.
It might be just bad luck in the GEs I've chosen to try to work with, but often what I find when I look at those 32 parameters is that
a) some of them are not editable / greyed out
b) most of the rest are already mapped to KARMA/RTC sliders and buttons
c) changing one that doesn't fall into (a) or (b) above does not always result in a noticeable change to the output
So it seems like there is not that much deep editing beyond what can already be done on the control surface with respect to the GE params? Or maybe I just don't quite get it yet.
If I'm trying to understand a synth, a lot of times I like to initialize it or zero it out to just a sine wave or whatever so that I can see what each thing I change does. I don't think there's a way to do that with KARMA since a lot of the low level stuff was built in the software and not exposed on the Kronos.
Anyway, I'll keep playing with it. Maybe the light bulb will go on.
Quote:
yes, my context for drums is in SEQ mode. If you are a song writer, you might get hooked on SEQ.
Say you are starting a New Song. You can assign an existing DT pattern in any midi track. Its probably a good habit to use midi ( program) track 10.
You can 'pick ' any program or drum kit into track 11, Start/REC Write and jam away on the keyboard. Its all midi. I guess you can call it a 'user pattern '.
You might notice the terminology is kind of loose. At some point, you have to get the keys, open the door, start the engine and drive the car and go places
Good stuff. The SEQ was a selling point for the K for me, but I didn't figure I would use it for actually making full songs. Based on what you and a couple others have said, I think I might be missing out on one of the K's best features, so I'm definitely going to give it a shot.
The drum track was one of the first things to make me scratch my head a little because there seems to be at least a half dozen ways to work with drums in the K. I think you're right. I just need to start going at it and see which ways work best for me.
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:14 am Post subject:
QuiRobinez wrote:
There is only one person on earth that really knows how to use the KARMA engine, and that is the developer Stephen Kay. All the KARMA guides and anwers on the internet are based on information that Stephen has shared with the community, there is no other way to learn it.
Reading the manuals is not enough, they aren't specific enough. So if you really want to learn you have only one option:
- Read all topics on Karma-labs forum: http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/
- Read all the topics on the KARMA Wiki: http://karma-lab.wikidot.com/
That's the only way to learn KARMA.
I'm well versed with the KK software at this point and have edited many of the articles on the Karma Lab Wiki. The way I got there was as Qui said, I read almost everything ever written about KARMA including every wiki and forum entry. Took years of dedication.
Lightbringer wrote:
If I'm trying to understand a synth, a lot of times I like to initialize it or zero it out to just a sine wave or whatever so that I can see what each thing I change does. I don't think there's a way to do that with KARMA since a lot of the low level stuff was built in the software and not exposed on the Kronos.
You're exactly correct, you'll need the software to initialize a GE. And I don't mean initialize it to an RTC model, I mean strip down all the realtime controls and set each KARMA group to their most basic settings. Once you have the software you'll learn about the different types of GE's: generated-riff, generated-gated, generated-drum and real-time. Different parts of the KARMA engine open up depending on the type of GE. So when you talk about an initialized state, you're really talking about creating an initialized version of each type of GE. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro
I'm well versed with the KK software at this point and have edited many of the articles on the Karma Lab Wiki. The way I got there was as Qui said, I read almost everything ever written about KARMA including every wiki and forum entry. Took years of dedication.
Prior to buying the Kronos, I had flagged the KK software as something I might want to add to it. I guess my only reservation is that it looks like it could be a pretty deep rabbit hole that could distract me from creating music as much as helping me do that.
Were those years of dedication enjoyable?
Are your music and sounds better for it?
Is the learning curve for KK somewhat back-loaded? Meaning, can you get some pretty good results with not too much time investment and then spend years going deeper as you will? Or do you really have to spend a lot of up front time before you get much of anywhere?
I know these are kind of subjective questions and will vary from person to person. Just looking for an opinion if you care to offer one.
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 955 Location: California
Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:50 pm Post subject:
It is a deep rabbit hole.
I enjoyed learning KARMA because it's so different from most things that are out there. Makes me feel like I'm on the forefront of some cutting edge tech. Even though the software has been out for many years, very very few people plumb the depths of KARMA.
My music and sounds are definitely better. There's no way I could write songs on my own with the level of sophistication that KARMA adds.
Since the KARMA engine is so interconnected, you do need to go pretty deep before you can develop your own style. However, as a reference for what's happening in the GE's it's indisposable. So if nothing else you would become far more proficient with the RTC model types. _________________ paypal.me/CharlesFerraro
Thanks, that is helpful. I think KK is something I'd probably enjoy.
There is both an engineer and a musician living in my brain. Most of the time they collaborate and play well together. But occasionally the engineer likes to get too far into the musician's time.
Realistically, that already happens with the Kronos even without the KK software. The musician says "there are so many great sounds ready to go here, let's make some music." The engineer says "let's tear into the depths of that MOD-7 synth and see what unbelievable sonic gem we can make come out of it."
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