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Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours
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ng_friend



Joined: 17 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

I just picked up a new Kronos yesterday, coming from a Krome. Had a few newbie questions/observations that I wanted to post here and maybe get some feedback on.

My first experience with the new Kronos was actually a bit of a scare. Got it out of the box, on the stand, all the wires hooked up. Hit the power switch for the first time. "System startup has failed"..... Turned it back off and on a few times, same thing. I was really worried that my board was DOA, but I ended up unplugging my damper pedal (a brand new Korg DS1H) and it then booted up normally. Turned it back off and tired booting again with the pedal plugged in, got the same error. It now seems to be booting up normally with the pedal plugged in, but I am a bit worried about the issue cropping back up. I guess I'll keep an eye on it the next few days. Anyone else ever have an issue like this?

Secondly, it seems like the Main Outs are way quieter than they were on my old Krome. Is this normal for the Kronos? It seems like I have to turn the volume knob up to maybe 2/3 on the Kronos to get the same volume level I was getting at around 1/3 on my Krome. The headphone out sounds a lot hotter than the Main Outs do.

Next, I started building some combis already once I finally got the board to boot up normally. I started with a blank combi patch and started to layer a few strings sounds. I noticed that if I would solo a certain timbre in the combi, it would sound fine, but if I'd unmute all timbres and play, the sound would be really thin. If i'd then import IFX from the programs, it would seem to sound normal, but it never really sounded that thing on my Krome without any IFX set up. I mainly found it kind of odd that it would sound so different by muting all but one timbre. I could probably post a video of it if someone wanted to see what I mean.

This one is probably a total newbie question, but this being my first aftertouch board, I don't really understand how hard I'm supposed to push to activate aftertouch. In videos I've seen of people using aftertouch, it looks as if the key action will push down past the normal point to activate aftertouch. I've tried applying some extra pressure to the keep after depressing, but it feels like the key won't depress past the normal point. Maybe I just have the complete wrong idea of how aftertouch works, but I always thought it was part of the key action.

Lastly, the data wheel on my Kronos feels really cheap and mushy. Is that how they all are or did I get a dud? The wheel on my Krome felt much more clicky and precise.

Sorry about all the questions, but I guess I'm just a nervous new owner of an expensive instrument.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, you pulled the trigger huh? Congrats! Smile

As you know I'm pretty new to it too. Some of these questions are kind of subjective and I can't answer all of them but...

You are using AT touch correctly. Aftertouch on the Kronos feels very "stiff" compared to a lot of other AT enabled controllers I've used. Not all patches have something assigned to it. Quite a few have vibrato assigned. You can change the AT curve to make it more or less sensitive.

I wouldn't describe the jog wheel as feeling cheap necessarily, but it feels soft compared to a lot I've encountered. Definitely not hard clicks.

For me I've never turned my volume knob up past the 1/2 way point and the signal is very strong. I'm going through a mixer into studio monitors.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:
I just picked up a new Kronos yesterday, coming from a Krome. Had a few newbie questions/observations that I wanted to post here and maybe get some feedback on.

My first experience with the new Kronos was actually a bit of a scare. Got it out of the box, on the stand, all the wires hooked up.

1) Hit the power switch for the first time. "System startup has failed"..... Turned it back off and on a few times, same thing. I was really worried that my board was DOA, but I ended up unplugging my damper pedal (a brand new Korg DS1H) and it then booted up normally. Turned it back off and tired booting again with the pedal plugged in, got the same error. It now seems to be booting up normally with the pedal plugged in, but I am a bit worried about the issue cropping back up. I guess I'll keep an eye on it the next few days. Anyone else ever have an issue like this?


2)Secondly, it seems like the Main Outs are way quieter than they were on my old Krome. Is this normal for the Kronos? It seems like I have to turn the volume knob up to maybe 2/3 on the Kronos to get the same volume level I was getting at around 1/3 on my Krome. The headphone out sounds a lot hotter than the Main Outs do.

3)Lastly, the data wheel on my Kronos feels really cheap and mushy. Is that how they all are or did I get a dud? The wheel on my Krome felt much more clicky and precise.

Sorry about all the questions, but I guess I'm just a nervous new owner of an expensive instrument.


lots of issues there. You might have a dud. lets clarify a few things.

1) looks like poor power source. How is your power ? Here in the US, we have reliable electricity. Try another outlet. Kronos demands consistent power.

2) You should have strong/good audible audio at 11:00 thru the mains. We don't know what your audio is. Cheap amp ? computer speakers ??

3) mushy= soft. The data wheel is not a piece of rubber. It does wiggle slightly in the chassis. Use a ' light touch' on the data wheel vs fat fingering it or pushing it hard.

Was your K2 factory sealed in box ? Thats the safest buy.
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NormC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:

This one is probably a total newbie question, but this being my first aftertouch board, I don't really understand how hard I'm supposed to push to activate aftertouch. In videos I've seen of people using aftertouch, it looks as if the key action will push down past the normal point to activate aftertouch. I've tried applying some extra pressure to the keep after depressing, but it feels like the key won't depress past the normal point. Maybe I just have the complete wrong idea of how aftertouch works, but I always thought it was part of the key action.


Do not confuse velocity sensitive sounds with aftertouch. The harder you hit or faster you hit is velocity. Aftertouch is the sound or effect made after you release it. Not every sound uses them and they are configurable in various locations.
They can also work together so for example if you don't trigger a velocity option you might not get an aftertouch option. I have adjusted my velocity curve because I was having trouble with the Save a prayer program not responding when I played it on the keyboard but it always worked if I triggered it from my nanopad2.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

NormC wrote:

Aftertouch is the sound or effect made after you release it. Not every sound uses them and they are configurable in various locations.


That's release velocity, isn’t it?

For a good example of aftertouch, go to Bank I-A094: Head Over Heals Synth

Press a key down like normal.

Now press the key down harder, and you'll hear a pronounced vibrato effect. Lighten up on your touch and the vibrato will subside.

That's aftertouch. On the RH3 key bed, I don't feel a whole lot of "give" in the key when engaging the aftertouch.


Last edited by Lightbringer on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in global mode you can calibrate the aftertouch.
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Gargamel314
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be VERY concerned about the startup error with the pedal. Considering it's a Korg pedal, that is certainly not normal.

Also, the Kronos seems to send a very strong signal everywhere I have hooked it up. I've never been able to turn the main knob up above 50% without my sound board clipping. You might check to make sure the MASTER VOLUME slider (2nd most right slider) is pushed up all the way up.

If i were you, since you just purchased your Kronos, return it and ask for an exchange. If not, definitely take it into a Korg licensed service provider for repair under warranty. Sorry your Kronos is under the weather, when you get a fully functional one, you will love it, and it won't give you any more problems.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The combi layer mute versus play is an important thing to understand in terms of polyphony limit.

Kronos is built to outdo itself when it comes to combi layers. It really is up to you to learn the limits and how to push them to the edge but not over.
Kronos drops notes or sounds when polyphony limit is reached. So expecting to hear a rich thick layer just because you have 16 timbres full of sounds, is not always realistic.
Some programs are already 4 layers deep before getting to combi to be layered with other programs that are also 2-4 layers deep themselves.
If all you play is monophonic style, the lowest polyphony synth engine STR-1 with both Exi used in all programs, will come in at 32 out of 40 notes polyphony when you press one key. I may be wrong -if each EXi allows layering in the EXi page. Then you have even more polyphony used than i approximated.
Even at best, a second note in such a maxed out combi, would drop out a whole lot of sound.

You have options such as timbre/track priority. To determine which timbre will be spared note dropping, but only when there is polyphony to spare. If there is no polyphony to spare, priority setting will do no good. I use it anyway because it ALWAYS helps.

You have to beable to estimate the polyphony and resource intensive programs impact on your combi work.

Also mute will not stop a timbre from using resources until you setup the “mute mode” in global mode basics, system preferences settings.
One mute mode allows the notes to run behind the silence of mute while the other mute mode cuts the note message out so the CPU can have the processing power to help polyphony rather than give energy to silence.

Also it is normal to me that FX versus no FX on kronos is a big difference. I would expect the sample set and FX processor in your prior keyboard would work differently than in kronos.

Sort out getting a handle on polyphony in Kronos first. I usually do not worry about polyphony until i am looking beyond 4 layers deep. Except when layering programs from STR-1. I use only one of those in any combi.

Also when importing program FX to combi, eventually with enough layers -each with FX chains ,will cause conflict and Kronos automatically drops out an FX and/or reroutes programs to best FX alternative.

Kronos will sort FX automatically and sort sound/note demand automatically -if you do not yourself organize FX to a feasible chain and routing scheme as well as lay in combi layers for a feasible polyphony demand.

I am not sure how deep Krome parameters go but kronos parameters do a lot to make or break a sound.

In combi mode you have timbre parameters, midi filters and such in the lower tabs of the main page. There are settings especially in OSC page of timbre parameters tab that have edit cell boxes that say “PRG” which means Program and implies to use the program settings in that instance/parameter. Be sure all those instances are set to PRG if you want all possible original program OSC & parameters included in the program when used in a combi.

I am not too sure how the main controller page works in Combi. The page for SW-1&2 and knobs 5-8. They could be set to do one thing to the sound in program mode and then set to do something else in combi mode where you bring the programs to. Maybe that is no real conflict between layered programs moved to combi. But check out what SW-1&2 are assigned to in each program and then check out what SW-1&2 are assigned to in the combi that has all those programs with their own independent SW-1&2 assignments.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes and all of it is assignable/reassignable and open to modulation within the assignment and then the modulation can be assigned in front of the scene -on the physical controls.

I have a bug in my kronos combi mode right now and as complex as kronos is, i still have a doubt about it being a bug because the complexity of kronos sometimes obscures a hidden setup doing something somewhere that isn’t wanted in a combi. Not being able to find the source in a heap of complexity; it is easy to give up and just call it a defect in the machine rather than a defect in my endurance to discover the secrets to the complexity.
But i am not saying kronos has no history of all kinds of bugs in the system —and yes bugs as a result of the complexity of the system.

Good luck. You took on a “beast”.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

NormC wrote:
Do not confuse velocity sensitive sounds with aftertouch. The harder you hit or faster you hit is velocity. Aftertouch is the sound or effect made after you release it.

Actually, that would be "key release velocity". It can be configured so that if you release keys quickly, it does one thing, if you release them slowly, it does another - such as lengthening the envelope release times.

Aftertouch is an effect that is added when you hold down the key, and then press it down slightly while holding it. The typical use is to add vibrato. Of course, it doesn't make sense on a piano, so a lot of patches don't really use aftertouch.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Few questions from a new Kronos owner of 24 hours Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:
Secondly, it seems like the Main Outs are way quieter than they were on my old Krome. Is this normal for the Kronos? It seems like I have to turn the volume knob up to maybe 2/3 on the Kronos to get the same volume level I was getting at around 1/3 on my Krome. The headphone out sounds a lot hotter than the Main Outs do.


What kind of cables are you using and what are you connecting it to? The Kronos has balanced outputs and so do many audio interfaces and mixers. With some lack of luck, you might get a poor audio signal if use an unbalanced cable and plug the Kronos into balanced gear. I got pretty odd results when plugging my Kronos into my FocusRite Clarett using non-balanced jacks, and that was fixed by switching to TSR cables.

ref: https://www.epiphan.com/blog/audio-cables-balanced-vs-unbalanced/
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ng_friend



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all who replied. Here's my day 2 report.

I tried booting the Kronos twice today. Both boot ups were successful, and were done with the damper pedal plugged in. Hopefully it was just a temporary glitch on the first day that I won't run into anymore. For anyone wondering, I am based in the US in a major metro area, and don't have any electrical issues I'm aware of. I'll still be keeping a close eye on this to make sure this issue doesn't return. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it seems like ever since I made my first write to GLOBAL, it's booted up normally w/ damper pedal every time.

I still thing the main outs are quieter than my Krome was, but after having a second day to spend more time with it, it might not be as bad as I originally thought. I have to turn up a bit more on some patches since they are quieter, but I'm finding that I'm usually able to get an acceptable volume level without turning the dial over 12:00. I am using 4" stereo monitors, so they are on the small side, but I'm mainly comparing to the sound level I recall getting out of the same rig when I had my Krome. So maybe in the end, I was just being knit picky/paranoid? I do have a Mackie analog console I could hook this up to and see what kind of levels I'm getting on the console.
@Gunnar: I'm just using regular stereo 1/4" patch cables. I'm pretty sure they are just TS, so probably unbalanced.

I spent a lot more time working on combis today, and maybe the issue I was describing in my first post is just a bad combination between 2 programs? I was only really getting this issue when trying to layer "Rainy Days & Mondays Strings" and "Legato Stereo Strings". These 2 sound fine on their own when I mute one or the other, but when I try to play both unmuted, it sounds pretty bad. This didn't seem to happen when I swapped out Legato Stereo Strings for other Strings patches. It just doesn't seem like that particular mix. Anyone else able to recreate?

I'm still having trouble trying to get the feel of aftertouch. Is there a recommended preset for helping get the hang of this? Something where'd I'd get a lot of auditory feedback without having to mess with the parameters.

The data wheel is warming up to me a little bit now. It still binds up on me a bit every now and then, but using a very light touch with it, it seems to work ok for the most part. One thing I did notice is that it seems to lag on screen when scrolling through timbres in COMBI mode. The response is fluid in PROG mode though. Is that just how COMBI mode is?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:
I spent a lot more time working on combis today, and maybe the issue I was describing in my first post is just a bad combination between 2 programs? I was only really getting this issue when trying to layer "Rainy Days & Mondays Strings" and "Legato Stereo Strings". These 2 sound fine on their own when I mute one or the other, but when I try to play both unmuted, it sounds pretty bad. This didn't seem to happen when I swapped out Legato Stereo Strings for other Strings patches. It just doesn't seem like that particular mix. Anyone else able to recreate?


If it is tied to two particular programs, perhaps it is some sort of phase-cancellation or you are hearing..

If you take two tracks and put the exact same program (or something which is built from the same samples and with close to similar processing) there is a good chance that some of the frequencies in those will end up cancelling each other out. Try for instance to put the same brass program on Timbre 1 and 2 without any other effects, panning, etc and play that. It will sound pretty crap and worse than if you solo one.

If this is in fact your problem there are a number of ways to address it:

- If they are similar, do you need to layer them at all? Chances are you don't Smile Perhaps the PROG had a different set of effects so it sounded different or different EQ, so perhaps tweak it a bit and stick with one.
- Detune the Timbres so they don't phase align, how much depends on the program and what you want to use it for.
- Set a delay on one of them. You can set a separate delay per Timbre, in milliseconds. Set Timbre 2 to run at 20 or 50 or even 100ms offset. I'm not at the Kronos right now, so I can't give you the precise location, but it is somewhere in the same set of tabs where you set channel, pitch etc for the oscillators.

ng_friend wrote:
I'm still having trouble trying to get the feel of aftertouch. Is there a recommended preset for helping get the hang of this? Something where'd I'd get a lot of auditory feedback without having to mess with the parameters.


If you bought the 73 or 88 key edition of the Kronos, the aftertouch is ridiculously hard. I felt like I would break my fingers when I tried to activate it, so I recalibrated it under GLOBAL settings to max out within the first 20-30%. It is still pretty hard and puts stress on my fingers when I activate it, but it is now usable for me. You can experiment with the calibration tool. It visualizes on screen the pressure you're giving in.

ng_friend wrote:
The data wheel is warming up to me a little bit now. It still binds up on me a bit every now and then, but using a very light touch with it, it seems to work ok for the most part. One thing I did notice is that it seems to lag on screen when scrolling through timbres in COMBI mode. The response is fluid in PROG mode though. Is that just how COMBI mode is?


I'm speculating here, but the lag is intentional from the Kronos OS perspective, I think. In terms of CPU load, the Kronos' biggest priority is to pump out sound, uninterrupted, no matter what you do, which sliders you press, which knobs you tweak and so forth. So any audio processing will have high priority in the system. The UI on the other hand, is less important in this regard and is probably run in a "best effort" mode in terms of CPU prioritization. In practice that means the Kronos will prefer a seamless sound transition to your next sound over updating the screen. You'll notice that if you have a COMBI or SEQ with a lot of effects and a lot of stuff going on, and you adjust one of the volume sliders, it will also lage behind with up to a second. Again the same thing. The system is busy producing audio in sync with you dragging the slider and playing the keybed and KARMA running and all that, and the user interface takes a back seat until there is time for it update without interrupting with the audio.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:


I was only really getting this issue when trying to layer "Rainy Days & Mondays Strings" and "Legato Stereo Strings". These 2 sound fine on their own when I mute one or the other, but when I try to play both unmuted, it sounds pretty bad. This didn't seem to happen when I swapped out Legato Stereo Strings for other Strings patches. It just doesn't seem like that particular mix. Anyone else able to recreate?


I think what you’re experiencing is phase cancellation when your layering the strings together. That's why they sound OK alone. You could try detuning them slightly and see if that helps.

And detuning can help create a fatter sound.
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ng_friend



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I was actually originally going to say it sounded like it might be a phase issue, but I guess I was just thrown off since I never had it happen on my Krome, where I also liked to work with a lot of string layers. Maybe these 2 timbres are just too similar. I'll try some of those suggestions and see how it works for me.

@Gunnar: I did in fact get the 88 key version. So I just need to apply a ton of force to engage aftertouch? I guess that's reassuring that I'll break my fingers first before damaging the keybed.

As for the lag, that makes sense since I'm sure there's a lot more going on CPU wise when in COMBI mode compared to PROG. It's not a big issue since I can touch the screen to select timbres without lag. It's really just lag with the on screen cursor when using the data wheel to scroll through the timbre banks in COMBI mode. It seems to take a second or 2 to catch up when you're scrolling through.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ng_friend wrote:
Thanks to all who replied. Here's my day 2 report.

I'm still having trouble trying to get the feel of aftertouch. Is there a recommended preset for helping get the hang of this? Something where'd I'd get a lot of auditory feedback without having to mess with the parameters.

The data wheel is warming up to me a little bit now. It still binds up on me a bit every now and then, but using a very light touch with it, it seems to work ok for the most part. One thing I did notice is that it seems to lag on screen when scrolling through timbres in COMBI mode. The response is fluid in PROG mode though. Is that just how COMBI mode is?


I find the data wheel can feel a little laggy when scrolling through presets in Combi or SEQ mode. I figure after the first couple weeks of exploration, that’s probably something I won’t normally do anyway as there are better ways to navigate.

Did you try the patch I posted above for AT? I picked that one not because I like the effect it creates, but because you can’t miss it.

Aftertouch is a great controller because you can use it without lifting a finger. LOL. I had a similar experience to you getting used to it (not on the Kronos but on my first AT keyboard).

I find AT is a very personal controller, meaning that to get something useful for me, I generally have to customize both the global AT response curve, and the individual program assignment. To get started, find a patch where you actually like what the AT is assigned to. Find where that assignment is in the synth engine, and play with the intensity, and also the global curve until you get it dialed in to something that feels good.

Once you get a feel for that, you might reassign AT to something other than what the sound designer did in a program, if they assigned it at all, so that it does something useful for you.
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