 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
|
 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
I'm slowly getting lost here but the Montage is multitimbral from a midi stand point. Each of the 16 parts receives messages on a different midi channel. It is just that those midi channels are fix and correspond to the part number.
Why would freely assignable input midi channels on a per part basis require a complete os rewrite is beyond my understanding. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A performance consists of 16 parts. Midi channels 1 thru 16. You can't change the receive channel number. Why is that such a big deal?
_________________
Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OK - I misunderstood the limitation. I was going by what someone claimed over on Yamahaforum that it can't respond on multiple MIDI channels so clearly they are incorrect on that so I was arguing with incorrect information. Apologies.
however I was also pointing out Yamaha's legacy approach to what they regard as a performance and how that has shaped the Montage design.
I'll bow out of this discussion here as I don't own one so clearly can't comment on what seems like an important point to those who own it.
Kudos to all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm afraid we will have to agree to differ, Kevin. 
If it was a pure performance synth with internal multi-timbrality only, it would not by default transmit the part data on multiple channels for each part.
If the Montage was a pure performance synth, it would not have a master zone mode, which allows you to control your external synths like you can on the EX5 (in performance mode) and Motif.
If you record Montage MIDI data in its default MIDI mode into something like Cubase, you'll see it transmitting on all channels where parts are active, and you need to ensure all channels play back to recreate the performance. Which from a workflow perspective when recording MIDI might seem logical, but it is not if, for example, you have four layered parts in a performance then you have to edit four channels of data when you make a change. Whereas if the Montage was a but more sensible in channel allocation you could set parts to the same channel and have one DAW track to play the multiple parts. Ditto in a live keyboard setup, you may not wish to be playing all Montage parts from its keyboard. I have some songs where I am playing the Kronos keyboard and I want some, but not all Montage parts to double up on what the Kronos is doing.
So yes, Montage does act as a performance synth. Yes, it is not a workstation, but is not as black and white as you suggest.
The discrepancy which (in my view) is totally illogical is being able to set a part to transmit on a MIDI channel (in Zone Master Mode), but I do not believe it is is reflected for the reception of data which limits the Montage's usefulness in some circumstances like the one I outline above.
To fix that would not require a total OS rewrite, as you suggest. Some simple channel mapping is all that is needed, which is a trivial MIDI operation to program (I know as I have done it many times). Give me the Montage code and, once familiar with it, I'd make such a change in a few days max.
Does this issue matter to me? As I said several times now, I can live with it, as I have the Montage set to single channel mode, and I do my MIDI processing required in my rig in Cantabile. But that does not stop me considering (IMO) several features in the Montage to be illogical.
But, like the EX5, you forgive its flaws because it sounds awesome. That does not mean to say that you should not mention your opinions to Yamaha, and that they could learn a lesson in listening to constructive Customer feedback without the condescending and patronising manner you see on Yamahasynth.
_________________
Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | you have four layered parts in a performance then you have to edit four channels of data when you make a change |
In Logic, you would use alias regions for the other parts in a performance. Or, use single channel mode and dump everything to USB audio when edits are done.
_________________
Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Devnor wrote: | | Quote: | | you have four layered parts in a performance then you have to edit four channels of data when you make a change |
In Logic, you would use alias regions for the other parts in a performance. Or, use single channel mode and dump everything to USB audio when edits are done. |
You don't understand the problem and it is mainly a problem on stage, not in the studio or in a DAW. Put simply: if you want to control the kronos from an external midi controller, you can do that on a single midi receive channel. In combi mode you may use a piano on the first timbre on the global channel. Let's say, it is Ch1. Now, you can add additional 15 programs into the combi, create splits and layers, all on Ch2. You set your midi controller to Ch2 and it will drive all your 15 parts inside the combi.
On the Montage, each part has a fixed and different midi channel. If you want to control a similar combi on the montage as I described it above, you would need a midi controller which has 16 parts and almost none midi controller these days is that capable. You would have to use a Kurzweil or the Kronos. There are some other problems too but we don't need to go into details so much at this point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sani wrote: | | Devnor wrote: | | Quote: | | you have four layered parts in a performance then you have to edit four channels of data when you make a change |
In Logic, you would use alias regions for the other parts in a performance. Or, use single channel mode and dump everything to USB audio when edits are done. |
You don't understand the problem and it is mainly a problem on stage, not in the studio or in a DAW. Put simply: if you want to control the kronos from an external midi controller, you can do that on a single midi receive channel. In combi mode you may use a piano on the first timbre on the global channel. Let's say, it is Ch1. Now, you can add additional 15 programs into the combi, create splits and layers, all on Ch2. You set your midi controller to Ch2 and it will drive all your 15 parts inside the combi.
On the Montage, each part has a fixed and different midi channel. If you want to control a similar combi on the montage as I described it above, you would need a midi controller which has 16 parts and almost none midi controller these days is that capable. You would have to use a Kurzweil or the Kronos. There are some other problems too but we don't need to go into details so much at this point. |
Again - because it's not designed as a multitimbral instrument in the MIDI sense!
It's a bloody synthesizer - NOT a workstation.
You're not asking for each section of a Sub37 to be controllable in that way! Why aren'y you - why isn't everybody?
Answer that - and you'll understand WHY the Montage is the way it is. My DX1 has 2 parts - I can't control any MIDI channels - it's not in the design of it.
Just because you can't get it to do what you want in a multitimbral way is no more Yamaha's fault than it is Moog's fault for not making each oscillator ont he Sub37 controllable from different MIDI channels.
Yamaha are right - you are looking at the Montage incorrectly - it's like a synth - a minibrute, a monotribe, a sub37 - it's NOT a workstation! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | In combi mode you may use a piano on the first timbre on the global channel. Let's say, it is Ch1. Now, you can add additional 15 programs into the combi, create splits and layers, all on Ch2. You set your midi controller to Ch2 and it will drive all your 15 parts inside the combi. |
The solution is to use scenes. Scene 1 for your piano, Scene 2 for your glorious 15 layer patch. Montage in single channel mode.
_________________
Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
What scenes?
You still seem not to understand it. Some people consider using a Montage 6 with a midi controller. They want some of the sounds to be played on the montage, the other from the midi controller at the same time. I just mentioned an extreme example but the problems start much earlier because most midi controller these days are quite limited in the number of parts they can control at once. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh yeah, I absolutely understand. Think about these midi controllers for a sec. What are they primary designed to do? Plug into computers via USB. So, Montage and controller connected via USB - Mainstage does all the mapping. I'll re-quote what Kevin posted earlier and this is key - it's been obvious since the Montage announcement:
| Quote: | | Again - because it's not designed as a multitimbral instrument in the MIDI sense! |
Also note there are many synths that will fully interface with Montage. Everything in my signature line does sans the Moog also the Krome, MOXF and FA Series.
_________________
Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Devnor wrote: | Oh yeah, I absolutely understand. Think about these midi controllers for a sec. What are they primary designed to do? Plug into computers via USB. So, Montage and controller connected via USB - Mainstage does all the mapping. I'll re-quote what Kevin posted earlier and this is key - it's been obvious since the Montage announcement:
| Quote: | | Again - because it's not designed as a multitimbral instrument in the MIDI sense! |
Also note there are many synths that will fully interface with Montage. Everything in my signature line does sans the Moog also the Krome, MOXF and FA Series. |
That's what I ended up doing via Cantabile, but not everybody has/wants a computer on stage.....
_________________
Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sani
Senior Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 354
Location: Croatia
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kevin Nolan wrote: |
Again - because it's not designed as a multitimbral instrument in the MIDI sense!
It's a bloody synthesizer - NOT a workstation.
You're not asking for each section of a Sub37 to be controllable in that way! Why aren'y you - why isn't everybody?
Answer that - and you'll understand WHY the Montage is the way it is. My DX1 has 2 parts - I can't control any MIDI channels - it's not in the design of it.
Just because you can't get it to do what you want in a multitimbral way is no more Yamaha's fault than it is Moog's fault for not making each oscillator ont he Sub37 controllable from different MIDI channels.
Yamaha are right - you are looking at the Montage incorrectly - it's like a synth - a minibrute, a monotribe, a sub37 - it's NOT a workstation! |
Kevin,
this is really starting to be ridiculous with your comparisons with keyboards from almost a half century ago. Sorry but you are really exaggerating this. Who on earth cares these days about a dx1 or a moog when it comes to a discussion about multitimbral use and control via midi? Who on earth tells you that you have to compare the Montage to a 40 years old DX1??????
Forget those words "synthesizer" and "workstation". This is a complete nonsense. Roland created a whole synthesizer line in the nineties, none was a workstation and they all were multitimbral midi wise (D70, JV line, XV line...).
The Motif never had the word "workstation" on it. Instead, the label is "music synthesizer" and yet it was a workstation.
I'm really open to other people opinions, but in this case, I really don't understand what you are up to.
The Montage is multitimbral. It has 16 parts. Can we please put at this point the ridiculous comparisons with a Moog and a DX1 aside? They simply don't fit. You are comparing a bicycle to a spaceship.
The Montage can send and control external gear on all 16 parts. You can freely assign any midi channel for each of the part for controlling an external device. But you cannot set the input channel freely. So, in your world, it is ok that the montage can freely send on a user selectable midi channel - that belongs in your opinion to the synthesizer part, but freely receiving on a user selectable midi channel suddenly becomes a workstation part. In other words: when the Montage is a fully featured master, it is ok for you because that belongs to the synthesizer part, but when we put the Montage in slave mode, suddenly it is not ok if we want freely to set the midi channel for each part because that feature suddenly becomes a workstation thing in your opinion.
This absolutely makes no sense and this kind of discussion leads to nowhere. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D575
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 1195
Location: UK (Dorset)
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sani wrote: | | Kevin Nolan wrote: |
Again - because it's not designed as a multitimbral instrument in the MIDI sense!
It's a bloody synthesizer - NOT a workstation.
You're not asking for each section of a Sub37 to be controllable in that way! Why aren'y you - why isn't everybody?
Answer that - and you'll understand WHY the Montage is the way it is. My DX1 has 2 parts - I can't control any MIDI channels - it's not in the design of it.
Just because you can't get it to do what you want in a multitimbral way is no more Yamaha's fault than it is Moog's fault for not making each oscillator ont he Sub37 controllable from different MIDI channels.
Yamaha are right - you are looking at the Montage incorrectly - it's like a synth - a minibrute, a monotribe, a sub37 - it's NOT a workstation! |
Kevin,
this is really starting to be ridiculous with your comparisons with keyboards from almost a half century ago. Sorry but you are really exaggerating this. Who on earth cares these days about a dx1 or a moog when it comes to a discussion about multitimbral use and control via midi? Who on earth tells you that you have to compare the Montage to a 40 years old DX1??????
Forget those words "synthesizer" and "workstation". This is a complete nonsense. Roland created a whole synthesizer line in the nineties, none was a workstation and they all were multitimbral midi wise (D70, JV line, XV line...).
The Motif never had the word "workstation" on it. Instead, the label is "music synthesizer" and yet it was a workstation.
I'm really open to other people opinions, but in this case, I really don't understand what you are up to.
The Montage is multitimbral. It has 16 parts. Can we please put at this point the ridiculous comparisons with a Moog and a DX1 aside? They simply don't fit. You are comparing a bicycle to a spaceship.
The Montage can send and control external gear on all 16 parts. You can freely assign any midi channel for each of the part for controlling an external device. But you cannot set the input channel freely. So, in your world, it is ok that the montage can freely send on a user selectable midi channel - that belongs in your opinion to the synthesizer part, but freely receiving on a user selectable midi channel suddenly becomes a workstation part. In other words: when the Montage is a fully featured master, it is ok for you because that belongs to the synthesizer part, but when we put the Montage in slave mode, suddenly it is not ok if we want freely to set the midi channel for each part because that feature suddenly becomes a workstation thing in your opinion.
This absolutely makes no sense and this kind of discussion leads to nowhere. |
+1 Sani
_________________
Korg PA5X-76 : Yamaha Montage M8x : Roland Jupiter 80 : Waldorf STVC : Roland Integra 7 : Waldorf Streichfett : Focal Trio6 ST6 : Studio Outboards/RME Audio Interface/A&H Mixer : |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There must be a good reason why the receive channel cannot be changed because it's totally against Yamaha MO. May have something to do with the motion control engine. SST only works with 8 parts or less, so there's that. Clearly the Montage can be controlled by many different synths but maybe not with that $199 USB midi controller and no computer. I don't see this as a big deal, it's really been overblown imo.
_________________
Fantom 7, Kronos 2, V Synth GT, Moog Voyager |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D575
Platinum Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 1195
Location: UK (Dorset)
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Devnor wrote: | | There must be a good reason why the receive channel cannot be changed because it's totally against Yamaha MO. May have something to do with the motion control engine. SST only works with 8 parts or less, so there's that. Clearly the Montage can be controlled by many different synths but maybe not with that $199 USB midi controller and no computer. I don't see this as a big deal, it's really been overblown imo. |
Well clearly from your side of this debate you may have this perceptions as you procrastinate ........BUT many still need this ability to freely change Midi receive channels per part as part of a Multi Keyboard Rig and although this is very clear why at Montage present state of evolution this would not be a practical option with in the current Multi Midi Mode when understanding the argumentl.....then would you not think the logical solution would be the introduction of a 3rd Midi Mode (let's call it "Midi+" for the purposes of this discussion) with the reasonable expectation and understanding that this 3rd option (Midi+) where you could freely change Midi receive channels per part would probably mean the temporary suspension of some of the functionality allowed while in the other two Midi Modes (Single & Multi)...if this could be introduced in some way (3rd Midi Mode "Midi+") with a future update I'm sure people would accept some reduced functionality when understanding the argument put forward by Yamaha....but at least this would allow another option with a more conventional method of implementing Midi receive channels per part freely in a more traditional Midi setup with a Multi Keyboard Rig... and of course when this functionality is not required we can then switch back to a Single or Multi Midi Mode accordingly any time we whish.....So let's not assassinate the thinking behind the motivation that would be required to allow a solution to this current issue by procrastinating just because we may feel we would personally never use this new needed 3rd option ... I don't see the problem for Yamaha to explore the possibility to implement this 3rd option (Midi+) considering what lies underneath the hood of Montage..... what now remains to be seen is a plausible and logical explanation why this cannot be done and so far I am struggling to understand this despite some of the other voices in this debate.
_________________
Korg PA5X-76 : Yamaha Montage M8x : Roland Jupiter 80 : Waldorf STVC : Roland Integra 7 : Waldorf Streichfett : Focal Trio6 ST6 : Studio Outboards/RME Audio Interface/A&H Mixer :
Last edited by D575 on Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:28 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
