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runningman67
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Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: Manchester UK
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 Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | KK wrote: | | Rich Z wrote: | | If you haven't heard about the problem they are calling "tin whiskers"... |
Geomagnetic storms are much more likely to destroy electronic equipment.
Or glasses of anything passing too close.
Or when you use your Kronos without UPS protection.
Sleep tight now.
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I prefer real problems. Like being clumsy moving my K, and dropping it on my foot , or taking out a wall of my house , when turning a tight corner.  |
Oh I know what you mean about the tight corner one Greg. Why does that happen. Never fails no matter how careful you are.
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Derek Cook
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Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Whilst not denying what they are presenting, in 35 years in the electronics industry, including servicing my synths, I have never seen this phenomenon in practice. So I would not lose to much sleep over it.
The usual problems I have seen, which is a known phenomena, is “thermal creep”, where due to minute movements during expansion/contraction due to heating/cooiing inside an enclosure, that connectors and socketed integrated circuits can slowly work their way loose. Mechanical vibration can also contribute of course.
If I am inside a synth, I always give connectors and socketed devices a good prod, and you can usually feel some movement.
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Last edited by Derek Cook on Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Derek Cook
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Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: |
New K's can still suffer component failure- we have seen about 5 reports of that in the past month. So you can't assume anything.
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The Electronic component reliability probability versus time curve on a graph looks like a “bath tub”. Higher probability in the early years and then a low constant failure probability until end of life where failure rates go up. Which is why I NEVER take out extended warranties. If it doesn’t fail in the first year the chances are you then have a good decade out of it.
And some things just go on and on and on. I have 34 year old Casio calculators that keep going. Whilst I am new to Korg, I have yet to any failures in any of my Yamaha synths.
| GregC wrote: |
If an owner leaves his K on , day and night for 5 years, I would expect a component to blink out. I consider that irregular use. Same with dropping it or subjecting a K to power surges. |
Actually, electronic devices “prefer” to be left on. It is quite often power surge stresses that cause problems in the long run. Whilst a simplistic example, which gets a lot of stress, have you noticed that filament light bulbs usually always fail when you turn them on? They rarely fail once they are on.
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Derek Cook
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Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| KK wrote: | | Rich Z wrote: | | If you haven't heard about the problem they are calling "tin whiskers"... |
Geomagnetic storms are much more likely to destroy electronic equipment.
Or glasses of anything passing too close.
Or when you use your Kronos without UPS protection.
Sleep tight now.
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Yup. My worst key “failure” ever on a gig was the bass player managing to spill his point over BOTH of my keyboards midway in the second set.
My EX5 (open key frame) stopped working in the middle of the keybed, so I was having to use transpose up and down to get a playable range. My Novation remote 61 (PCB membrane switches) was OK at first, but slowly stopped working as beer was drawn under the membrane by capillary action.
Bass player was not popular and banned from having beer on stage after that (or anywhere near me), and I had to do a complete strip down, clean out and rebuild of both synths before the gig the following night, which I made with 20 minutes to spare!
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Derek Cook wrote: | | GregC wrote: |
New K's can still suffer component failure- we have seen about 5 reports of that in the past month. So you can't assume anything.
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The Electronic component reliability probability versus time curve on a graph looks like a “bath tub”. Higher probability in the early years and then a low constant failure probability until end of life where failure rates go up. Which is why I NEVER take out extended warranties. If it doesn’t fail in the first year the chances are you then have a good decade out of it.
And some things just go on and on and on. I have 34 year old Casio calculators that keep going. Whilst I am new to Korg, I have yet to any failures in any of my Yamaha synths.
| GregC wrote: |
1)If an owner leaves his K on , day and night for 5 years, I would expect a component to blink out. I consider that irregular use. Same with dropping it or subjecting a K to power surges. |
1)Actually, electronic devices “prefer” to be left on. It is quite often power surge stresses that cause problems in the long run. Whilst a simplistic example, which gets a lot of stress, have you noticed that filament light bulbs usually always fail when you turn them on? They rarely fail once they are on. |
1) to be more clear, I was referring to the LCD more prone to failure ny leaving the older/oldest Kronos ( here in the US) on 24/7 for 5 years. We had an owner
report an LCD failure here and he stated he left it on all night. So I was taking that report as an example of my (unproven) theory.
Furthermore, where I live in the US, we have power flickers. Yes, I know, UPS.
But still, many owners do not have a UPS. While power is fairly reliable overall, that is not 100%. My attitude , where I live, is to not invite power surges. Here in CA, they do happen. About 20 times per year on average. They vary in intensity. Plus a fan failure here in warm/hot California, well, you can guess what to expect with a fan failure on a K. The K would lock up and shut down from heat.
Keep in mind, not all of us have the K2 with auto sleep, hibernation mode, standby mode, whatever its called. That seems to be the 'happy medium '
I agree with many of your points. I know about the bathtub graph.
There is simply to much variation in usage to decide exactly what to do. This is an important debate since most of us want longevity and reliability. This article
fairly addresses the debate:
https://www.lifewire.com/shut-computer-down-or-not-4135231
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dfahrner
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 571
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Derek Cook wrote: | | Whilst a simplistic example, which gets a lot of stress, have you noticed that filament light bulbs usually always fail when you turn them on? They rarely fail once they are on. |
I've read that with light bulbs, leaving them on for long periods of time "weakens" or ages the filament and its internal connections, and then at some point, a much higher turn-on stress causes the weakened filament to fail...I have a few incandescent bulbs in my house that are hardly ever used, and they were in place when I moved in 12 years ago...
I'm not sure how this applies to the Kronos end-of-life...looking at Oasys forum postings, I've noticed more component failure problems in the past few years, so the Oasys is probably starting up the back side of the bathtub curve...the Kronos, even the first ones, should have some years left before that starts happening (but it will)...
df |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dfahrner wrote: | [
I'm not sure how this applies to the Kronos end-of-life...looking at Oasys forum postings, I've noticed more component failure problems in the past few years, so the Oasys is probably starting up the back side of the bathtub curve...the Kronos, even the first ones, should have some years left before that starts happening (but it will)...
df |
thats a good clue. Given kronos and Oasys have similar design/components.
To clarify, Oasys started production in 2005. Oldest ones are now at year 13
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rickster1
Full Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 143
Location: Hilton Head Island, SC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I always use my UPS..
Love this forum & all the posts on this subject... sounds like 10 yrs is not an unrealistic expectation.
I know about hitting walls in tight corners...with me, the baseboards suffer. Gotta fix those when we sell the house.
Generally tho, I baby the hell outta my K. |
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studio460
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Joined: 12 Feb 2018
Posts: 155
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Aside from losing any current work, what catastrophic failure does a UPS prevent? I read that SSD data can be lost (in rare instances) by an unexpected power-interruption, but how is that different from simply turning the K off? Is there a "shut-down" procedure in the K (I've been just turning off the hard-switch)?
I have a very expensive APC UPS that's currently powering the house's FiOS ONT and router (I originally bought it to supply my 4TB SSD-array for my iMac which I've still yet to set up!). Before Southern California Edison replaced some sub-station equipment, we used to get power-outages every time it rained, plus at least once a month (already lost contents of two HDDs due to that!).
Since then, I've vowed to only store data (i.e., photos from my macOS devices) on SSDs, hence, the expensive APC UPS. Every new laptop and iMac in the house are exclusively SSD—no more magnetic HDDs! And since removable media has come down in price, I've even begun considering using SD cards as archival media for important photos (e.g., vacations, special occasions, etc.).
I do love the power-off feature in the K2 since I tend to leave my synths on all night, thinking a moment of inspiration is coming at any moment (typically hours of sleep follow instead).
I do hope that my Kronos Platinum lasts forever since I never really sell my gear (I think I still have my 32-year-old Roland S-10 sampler and 26-year-old Roland JV-80!). When I bought my K2, I thought I might sell my Roland G8, but its 24-track recorder is so good, but I've yet to connect it to my brand-new copy of Logic Pro X yet.
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psionic311
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Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 1046
Location: Orlando, Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: |
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I suspect when the Kronos in general starts failing, we will see a lot of reporting of it on the forums. We are nowhere near that at this point. I also suspect that by the time that starts happening, the world will have changed quite a bit and this will be a not so major issue...
Having a UPS serves many immediate functions, esp useful in live gigging situations --
1) continuous power supply, such that any blackout or brownout of power onstage will NOT affect your Kronos (meaning no reboot)
2) smooth power supply / conditioning, extending the lifetime of your Kronos (many venues have questionable power sources)
3) surge protection, in case of power surge or distant lightning storm (a constant issue in Florida)
4) backup power if main power goes out. For this reason alone I reserve my UPS for my powered main FOH speakers, my Kronos, and my XR18 digital mixer. Lights out and you still got keys, bass, vocals, and drums. Who needs guitarists anyway... |
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GregC
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Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| studio460 wrote: | Aside from losing any current work, what catastrophic failure does a UPS prevent? I read that SSD data can be lost (in rare instances) by an unexpected power-interruption, but how is that different from simply turning the K off? Is there a "shut-down" procedure in the K (I've been just turning off the hard-switch)?
I have a very expensive APC UPS that's currently powering the house's FiOS ONT and router (I originally bought it to supply my 4TB SSD-array for my iMac which I've still yet to set up!). Before Southern California Edison replaced some sub-station equipment, we used to get power-outages every time it rained, plus at least once a month (already lost contents of two HDDs due to that!).
Since then, I've vowed to only store data (i.e., photos from my macOS devices) on SSDs, hence, the expensive APC UPS. Every new laptop and iMac in the house are exclusively SSD—no more magnetic HDDs! And since removable media has come down in price, I've even begun considering using SD cards as archival media for important photos (e.g., vacations, special occasions, etc.).
I do love the power-off feature in the K2 since I tend to leave my synths on all night, thinking a moment of inspiration is coming at any moment (typically hours of sleep follow instead).
I do hope that my Kronos Platinum lasts forever since I never really sell my gear (I think I still have my 32-year-old Roland S-10 sampler and 26-year-old Roland JV-80!). When I bought my K2, I thought I might sell my Roland G8, but its 24-track recorder is so good, but I've yet to connect it to my brand-new copy of Logic Pro X yet. |
there are 2 separate concerns , from my POV.
There is gear stability/longevity.
And if an artist is a serious song writer, preserving material for decades is also important.
Generally , more expensive hardware made in the 80's/90's was over engineered in a way. I am using classic Roland stuff- Jv880, A50 controllers as examples.
But that long term 20/30 yr approach of manufacturing will not apply to Kronos . Or to most other instruments designed and manufactured in the past 10-15 yrs. Manufacturers have combined low cost components, with light weights.
Given how affordability and light weight has been demanded, the trade off is less long term life. I think the 10 year expectation for Kronos is very reasonable.
Beyond that, we are playing with house money, I think.
For us serious song writers, our material that is 100% Kronos, long term life
and usability of our material after Kronos, is a separate discussion. Not many think long term, which I understand. But it can be fun to toss it around and clarify what requirements and context is all about
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dfahrner
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 571
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | Generally , more expensive hardware made in the 80's/90's was over engineered in a way... |
..like sailboats: back when fiberglass hulls were first used in production boats in the late '60s - early '70s, the guys in the shop looked at the first hulls out of the molds and said, "Nah, that's not thick enough", so the revised, heavier first production fiberglass sailboats are still in service and will essentially last forever...like the DX7?
df |
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GregC
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Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| dfahrner wrote: | | GregC wrote: | | Generally , more expensive hardware made in the 80's/90's was over engineered in a way... |
..like sailboats: back when fiberglass hulls were first used in production boats in the late '60s - early '70s, the guys in the shop looked at the first hulls out of the molds and said, "Nah, that's not thick enough", so the revised, heavier first production fiberglass sailboats are still in service and will essentially last forever...like the DX7?
df |
that might be a good analogy. I don't have sailboat knowledge over the decades.
The Dx7 seems to be a good example- from 1983. And they can be found used for $300 in excellent condition on eBay.
I missed out on all keyboards in the 80's. I got married in 1980, raised a daughter, bought our 1st house etc. A $2000 keyboard for me back then was not going to happen.
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meatballfulton
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Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 351
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| benny ray wrote: | | My tech says Korg is the worst at when they discontinue a keyboard the parts become hard to find really soon. I am not sure about the 10 year law that you speak of but it sure would be nice if it were true. |
I had an Electribe EM-1 with a bad effects selector switch (actually a custom pot!). Korg was unable to supply a replacement part just 5 years after the EM-1 was discontinued.
| studio460 wrote: | | Since then, I've vowed to only store data (i.e., photos from my macOS devices) on SSDs, hence, the expensive APC UPS. Every new laptop and iMac in the house are exclusively SSD—no more magnetic HDDs! And since removable media has come down in price, I've even begun considering using SD cards as archival media for important photos (e.g., vacations, special occasions, etc.). |
Although flash memory (what SSDs, thumb drives and CF/SD cards all use) has no moving parts they are not archival storage solutions. Some tests have said that retention can be as little as 2 years before data starts to be lost. Think about how most of use SD cards in our cameras, portable recorders, etc. We fill them up, offload the data to a computer, reformat and start over again. The data is usually backed up after a few days if not sooner. I back up recordings made to my pocket recorder as soon as I get home so sometimes it's less than an hour after the recording was finished!
Sadly, there are no simple foolproof ways to get archival storage of digital data. You have to keep making new copies and verifying the data each time you make a new copy. So if you use SD cards, you need to make fresh copies every few months just to be safe. Compare that with the ease of archiving print media...books can last hundreds of years if properly stored.
If you read up on backup strategies it's best to have multiple copies in multiple places (so if your house burns down, you still have copies somewhere else). Having a few backup drives (SSD or traditional HD) in different locations plus cloud storage is probably best. The real problem is as time goes by you need to store more and more data. I remember when I could back up all my data with a box of floppies. Then I needed at least a CD, then a 20GB hard drive, then an 80GB drive...currently up to a pair of 3 TB drives, some of the data stored goes back 30 years. In a decade I'll probably need 4-8 times that much storage 
So what do businesses use to archive data? Magnetic tape is still used, because it can last decades before it starts to fail. Also optical discs (blu-ray DVDs, for instance). Of course, a blu-ray DVD only holds 50GB per disc...that's 20 discs per TB stored (ouch). You need to store them in low temperature, controlled humidity environments. Got a spare refrigerator?
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GregC
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="meatballfulton"] | benny ray wrote: |
If you read up on backup strategies it's best to have multiple copies in multiple places (so if your house burns down, you still have copies somewhere else). Having a few backup drives (SSD or traditional HD) in different locations plus cloud storage is probably best. The real problem is as time goes by you need to store more and more data. I remember when I could back up all my data with a box of floppies. Then I needed at least a CD, then a 20GB hard drive, then an 80GB drive...currently up to a pair of 3 TB drives, some of the data stored goes back 30 years. In a decade I'll probably need 4-8 times that much storage
So what do businesses use to archive data? Magnetic tape is still used, because it can last decades before it starts to fail. Also optical discs (blu-ray DVDs, for instance). Of course, a blu-ray DVD only holds 50GB per disc...that's 20 discs per TB stored (ouch). You need to store them in low temperature, controlled humidity environments. Got a spare refrigerator? |
I like this topic. Because , for me, I want to store my Song files ( you can call it data) for +20 yrs. To well outlast the Kronos
I don't expect to rely on Korg, to make the next W/s( assuming this ever happens) back ward compatible with similar file types.
This is not necessarily a tech discussion for a solution. I see this as each person, has to figure out his/her own Process to archive the 'data'.
Currently I have 3 locations for my Song files. SSD, USB and my mac . Seems redundant but its a fair process. I also have to go back and create midi files
of every song so I can at least have 1 ' language ', that DAWs or other keyboards can understand. I don't have 100's of songs, under 50.
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