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Not Kronos: Devaluation of Music: It’s Worse Than You Think
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject: Not Kronos: Devaluation of Music: It’s Worse Than You Think Reply with quote

Make some coffee. Find your favorite chair.

Take 10-15 minutes to read this well researched article, possibly US centric:

https://medium.com/cuepoint/the-devaluation-of-music-it-s-worse-than-you-think-f4cf5f26a888

Starving artists have been affected by more than just piracy and streaming royalties....
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree Greg.

This is a topic close to my heart, and something which I have lamented for a long time, even before the appearance of the first MP3 player. I have always complained how the media and advertisers take and use many great compositions of the past out of context and perpetually repeat them in our face. Gone is the "special-ness" of listening to a great piece of music only when you have the urge, and not hearing it constantly where ever you turn. In my view, it so cheapens the brilliance of the composer!

I keep rationalising it as a sign of the times, but it hurts. I also have found myself in conversation even currently, how when I was a kid, every second house had a resident upright piano, and every second kid had a least tried piano lessons.
The schools struggle to keep the interest of kids to learn a musical instrument, and their budgets reflect this.

I find most of my friends have little interest in pianos, and tend to not comprehend anything that doesn't come out of a media device.


I could go on Sad
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
I totally agree Greg.

This is a topic close to my heart, and something which I have lamented for a long time, even before the appearance of the first MP3 player. I have always complained how the media and advertisers take and use many great compositions of the past out of context and perpetually repeat them in our face.

Gone is the "special-ness" of listening to a great piece of music only when you have the urge, and not hearing it constantly where ever you turn. In my view, it so cheapens the brilliance of the composer!

I keep rationalising it as a sign of the times, but it hurts. I also have found myself in conversation even currently, how when I was a kid, every second house had a resident upright piano, and every second kid had a least tried piano lessons.
The schools struggle to keep the interest of kids to learn a musical instrument, and their budgets reflect this.

I find most of my friends have little interest in pianos, and tend to not comprehend anything that doesn't come out of a media device.


I could go on Sad


I am glad you posted, brother. I was hoping it might be better in other countries. Sorry to read we are all in the same soup.

Everything you say is true here in the US. Us musicians , esp us Song writers seems to have little to no control.

Understanding the arts and the appreciation, advancement is barely a whisper in our educational institutions.

Beautiful work and potentially beautiful work by gifted artists is being systematically marginalized. Even worse, the mass audience is distracted or caught up with low quality since it is cheap and plentiful.

Quantity does not equal quality.

There is a silver lining. We can use our artistry and any frustration and channel it into our creative efforts. The last song I created, Imperfect Universe,
is an example of my frustration with the direction of our country.

Our music can be cathartic as we mirror back what we observe and feel. And fellow musicians and other artists are here to listen and understand that fine work.

No one can take that away or marginalize it.
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marc1
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, come on. This nostalgic lamenting over supposedly better times is way too dramatic. Music has always been a tool, a means for entertainment and recreation. Of course there are downsides to the digitalization of the entertainment industry and some overall negative developments in terms of music education. But if anything the creation of music itself has become more accessible than ever, which I think is a good thing.

And seriously, most of the pop and rock songs have always been and will always be blatantly simple both in terms of music and intellectual content.

Just my two cents.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
DeltaJockey wrote:
I totally agree Greg.

This is a topic close to my heart, and something which I have lamented for a long time, even before the appearance of the first MP3 player. I have always complained how the media and advertisers take and use many great compositions of the past out of context and perpetually repeat them in our face.

Gone is the "special-ness" of listening to a great piece of music only when you have the urge, and not hearing it constantly where ever you turn. In my view, it so cheapens the brilliance of the composer!

I keep rationalising it as a sign of the times, but it hurts. I also have found myself in conversation even currently, how when I was a kid, every second house had a resident upright piano, and every second kid had a least tried piano lessons.
The schools struggle to keep the interest of kids to learn a musical instrument, and their budgets reflect this.

I find most of my friends have little interest in pianos, and tend to not comprehend anything that doesn't come out of a media device.


I could go on Sad


I am glad you posted, brother. I was hoping it might be better in other countries. Sorry to read we are all in the same soup.

Everything you say is true here in the US. Us musicians , esp us Song writers seems to have little to no control.

Understanding the arts and the appreciation, advancement is barely a whisper in our educational institutions.

Beautiful work and potentially beautiful work by gifted artists is being systematically marginalized. Even worse, the mass audience is distracted or caught up with low quality since it is cheap and plentiful.

Quantity does not equal quality.

There is a silver lining. We can use our artistry and any frustration and channel it into our creative efforts. The last song I created, Imperfect Universe,
is an example of my frustration with the direction of our country.

Our music can be cathartic as we mirror back what we observe and feel. And fellow musicians and other artists are here to listen and understand that fine work.

No one can take that away or marginalize it.


I think on this topic, Australia is pretty much in the same culture as the US and most modern western societies....can't speak for other cultures though.
There are still music programs in schools, it's just not as universal as it used to be. I know my local High school has a very good music program and band to boot, but that's only because a retired principle's wife is one of the top education department music professionals in the state. But that example is variable across schools, and is woefully lacking in many.

Yes, technology has made "music" production universally accessible, and available to all audiences, which is great, but is a double edged sword, leading to our cheapening of the hard work put in by artists, because we all have different moral standards as what is acceptable in our handling of intellectual property and conduct imposed on the wider public.
On the topic of cheapening masterpieces, I guess my lament, is that I take great passion in surrounding myself with musical creations as an emotional journey, whether by exploration through composing my own or listening to the intended expression of another artist, I feel sad when the message is lost by mass deployment out of context.

I like your tracks Greg, the chord sequences of the beginning of your Imperfect Universe, reminds me of some early CSNY. Very chilled out tracks you have too!
(Many, many years ago, I was able to produce tracks and sell them locally, or via friends to overseas via cassette or CD, but now I settle for a slot on Soundcloud. Luckily I've never needed to rely on it for an income.)
I have, as yet to put down some of my current tracks with my Kronos on Soundcloud, so the existing ones I have were created on synths on the days of Atari and poor quality analog recording!

A bit of a ramble....sorry Smile


....Marc1. I don't disagree with what you have said, but I think we are talking about something philosophically more fundamental here than that.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DeltaJockey"]
GregC wrote:
DeltaJockey wrote:
I totally agree Greg.


I(



Yes, technology has made "music" production universally accessible, and available to all audiences, which is great, but is a double edged sword, leading to our cheapening of the hard work put in by artists, because we all have different moral standards as what is acceptable in our handling of intellectual property and conduct imposed on the wider public.
On the topic of cheapening masterpieces, I guess my lament, is that I take great passion in surrounding myself with musical creations as an emotional journey, whether by exploration through composing my own or listening to the intended expression of another artist, I feel sad when the message is lost by mass deployment out of context.

I like your tracks Greg, the chord sequences of the beginning of your Imperfect Universe, reminds me of some early CSNY. Very chilled out tracks you have too!
(Many, many years ago, I was able to produce tracks and sell them locally, or via friends to overseas via cassette or CD, but now I settle for a slot on Soundcloud. Luckily I've never needed to rely on it for an income.)
I have, as yet to put down some of my current tracks with my Kronos on Soundcloud, so the existing ones I have were created on synths on the days of Atari and poor quality analog recording!

A bit of a ramble....sorry Smile


....Marc1. I don't disagree with what you have said, but I think we are talking about something philosophically more fundamental here than that.


Enjoying our chat. Certainly, we are using technology , enjoying the benefits.
I don't mind showing my age and pointing out musical heritage of the 60's/70's/80's.

I think there was a tremendous burst of creativity and to experience that was priceless. I am ok with being called retro. I can handle any criticism Smile

Cool you mentioned CSNY. Crosby is a genius. Stills a talented multi instrumentalist. Last summer, I contemplated covering Deja Vu. I wasn't
convinced I could do the song justice. Their song writing from the 60's/70's
was an influence, at least subtly.

I think great music is timeless. CSNY is an example of this.

Thank you for listening to Imperfect Universe. Funny, that my wife didn't care for it. And she is right 99% of the time.
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dfahrner
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the sheer availability of low cost, high quality music production and playback technology is the main culprit in the "Devaluation of Music" that Craig Havinghurst writes about (although music retains its value for a lot of us)...nowadays anyone can produce or listen to music anywhere, anytime, that is indistinguishable (to most ears) from actual live music-making...that constant, easy availability automatically makes it less valuable...

Which is not say that there aren't benefits to all of this fabulous technology...

df
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfahrner wrote:
I think that the sheer availability of low cost, high quality music production and playback technology is the main culprit in the "Devaluation of Music" that Craig Havinghurst writes about (although music retains its value for a lot of us)...nowadays anyone can produce or listen to music anywhere, anytime, that is indistinguishable (to most ears) from actual live music-making...that constant, easy availability automatically makes it less valuable...

Which is not say that there aren't benefits to all of this fabulous technology...

df


Simply my opinion. Jazz( the artists I enjoy or genre) seemed to be vibrant in the 70's/80's/90's.

Its likely my narrow taste, but when I explore for newer material from 2001 thru today, the selection and quality is much less.

Its almost like everyone's contract (in the genre) lapsed in 1999 and did not get renewed. And creative artists got marginalized.

I believe its a case of this creative genre losing support for various reasons and dealing with the massive sea change of digitized.

Examples of who I like today is Aaron Parks, Michiel Borstlap I left out the obvious names who are aging and still productive.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think there was a tremendous burst of creativity and to experience that was priceless.


Agree.
My feeling is that the 70's in particular were exciting times for musos. (Also I think I'm a year or two behind you Greg, as it was the beginning of the 70's where I really took an interest in serious music). The cusp of a variety of new sounds with the wider availability of electronic instruments to the "musician on the street". No longer limited to acoustic effects. This added inspiration, and I think too, people had more time to dedicate to the early technology, whereas today, the amount of tech is overwhelming, and the average person seems more time poor, and looking for a quick answer to the tech question.

But more to the point, it was before the advent of total technology distraction. Musicians were still able to focus on their music, and simply use the instruments as tools...the learning phase was combined with the musical exploration.
On the audience side, it was a captured market to an extent, because there were fewer options to gain access to the music. From my experience, I think at a human level, less choice ultimately provides greater satisfaction. I know that my most productive composing years, were when I had less to work with, and technical improvisation gave me incredible satisfaction. These days there's "less to conquer", in this respect, and our expectations are also higher. Of course I'm getting older , and the world is not quite as big and wondrous to me!

Having said that, I personally, would not want go back to the days without my Kronos, I just need to practice more discipline in focusing on the music rather than the technology. (I know we have touched on these topics here on the Forum ad nauseam)

I think too there other reasons why we think these times were priceless. We are showing the signs of aging reminiscently , where our earlier years have imprinted what we believe is the best we've experienced. I'm sure the younger generations would not feel the same way. We could I suppose, explain that they don't know what they are missing, but it's all relative, and younger generations will also have the right of telling the yet to be born folk how good times were Smile

In the end, I think it's quite ok, to feel that the best era's we've experienced should last forever. When I was young and naive, I used to get a bit impatient with older people talking this way, but now I fully understand.

The musical times we lived though during those decades, really were the best. Wink lol
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
Quote:
I think there was a tremendous burst of creativity and to experience that was priceless.


Agree.
My feeling is that the 70's in particular were exciting times for musos. (Also I think I'm a year or two behind you Greg, as it was the beginning of the 70's where I really took an interest in serious music). The cusp of a variety of new sounds with the wider availability of electronic instruments to the "musician on the street". No longer limited to acoustic effects. This added inspiration, and I think too, people had more time to dedicate to the early technology, whereas today, the amount of tech is overwhelming, and the average person seems more time poor, and looking for a quick answer to the tech question.

But more to the point, it was before the advent of total technology distraction. Musicians were still able to focus on their music, and simply use the instruments as tools...the learning phase was combined with the musical exploration.
On the audience side, it was a captured market to an extent, because there were fewer options to gain access to the music. From my experience, I think at a human level, less choice ultimately provides greater satisfaction. I know that my most productive composing years, were when I had less to work with, and technical improvisation gave me incredible satisfaction. These days there's "less to conquer", in this respect, and our expectations are also higher. Of course I'm getting older , and the world is not quite as big and wondrous to me!

Having said that, I personally, would not want go back to the days without my Kronos, I just need to practice more discipline in focusing on the music rather than the technology. (I know we have touched on these topics here on the Forum ad nauseam)

I think too there other reasons why we think these times were priceless. We are showing the signs of aging reminiscently , where our earlier years have imprinted what we believe is the best we've experienced. I'm sure the younger generations would not feel the same way. We could I suppose, explain that they don't know what they are missing, but it's all relative, and younger generations will also have the right of telling the yet to be born folk how good times were Smile

In the end, I think it's quite ok, to feel that the best era's we've experienced should last forever. When I was young and naive, I used to get a bit impatient with older people talking this way, but now I fully understand.

The musical times we lived though during those decades, really were the best. Wink lol


I think all your points are perfectly valid. I am 65 and lucky to feel like a young 65. Its cool we can be in different countries and be on the same page with observations that are complex .

This is US centric, but PBS did an excellent series on music production starting
with the 50's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuQrwAnw3wo&t=270s

This is episode 1. I think there are 11 one hour episodes.

I think history is important , esp when it contains many important lessons.
My context here is history from the 60s going forward.

I know what you are saying- now we are talking like our parents, and getting nostalgic. Its more than talk- we have recorded video to support what we assert.
about the past.

I have talked up 60's and 70's music around town. I have only 1 local friend ( with a Kronos) who totally gets it. I estimate I have repeated my 60's/70's music topic about 100 times in the past year locally. Crickets. Casual music fans around here don't care.

Like you, I am very spoiled and excited about my Kronos. It enables me to be a versatile songwriter, even while I am a retro type musician with average skills.

For example, I completed ( or nearly complete) a romantic ballad tonight on Kronos. Kronos allows me to be a 1 man band with my material. If I only had my gear from the 70;s or just an acoustic piano, this ballad would not be presentable.

FYI, I don't allow technology over load to bother me. My muse is a jealous women and I must obey demands for new songs Smile
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is US centric, but PBS did an excellent series on music production starting
with the 50's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuQrwAnw3wo&t=270s


Greg, I tried to view this video. Unfortunately it's region locked due to copyright. I watched a trailer though, and I recognised it, so I think it aired locally on one one our TV networks a year or so back.
I didn't get the impression it was completely US centric, with so many British artists too. I think we all were quite heavily influenced by many of the British bands in those days along with US artists.
As you may know, Australia for many decades has had a well developed music industry, and many of the experiences during those heady times of past decades had parallels in our local industry.
The only difference was scale of magnitude. It's not surprising that our countries have gone through similar histories. I've deduced that from my travels though the US, that there are greater cultural differences between US states than between Australia and the US. Just my impression anyway Smile
I do find music industry history is well portrayed in local Australia media documentaries etc. It at least provides some insight for the newer generations coming though.

Quote:
FYI, I don't allow technology over load to bother me. My muse is a jealous women and I must obey demands for new songs


I envy your temperament...My career has been in the engineering/science field all my life, so as technology has become available, I've been like a kid in a candy shop! It's been a struggle at times not to be distracted, which is partially why I made comment of my productivity being greater in the earlier years Sad Still, I'm loving these times of Kronos et al.


Chris
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
Quote:
This is US centric, but PBS did an excellent series on music production starting
with the 50's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuQrwAnw3wo&t=270s


Greg, I tried to view this video. Unfortunately it's region locked due to copyright. I watched a trailer though, and I recognised it, so I think it aired locally on one one our TV networks a year or so back.
I didn't get the impression it was completely US centric, with so many British artists too. I think we all were quite heavily influenced by many of the British bands in those days along with US artists.

Chris


Hi Chris, I was referring to PBS in my US centric remark. You are correct, in that the program content refers to British artists.

But since I haven't seen the entire series, I don't know how well balanced it is.

Just my effort to show that I think every production should be global in scope.
I think highly of PBS.

about PBS: The Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) is an American public broadcaster and television program distributor. It is a non-profit organization and is the most prominent provider of government-funded educational television programming to public television stations in the United States
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same could be said for a number of crafts—still photography, television production, etc. Since the dawn of DSLRs, still photographers' rates and agency royalties have plummeted. Thanks to digital publishing, my own work has been used time and again without permission or payment.

Television outlets have replaced expensive professional operators and sound-recordists with $12/hour PAs wielding iPhones on $150 gimbals (the tripods we use where I work cost $9,000, and just a few years ago the cameras we used cost $90,000, each mounted with a $35,000 lens).
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

studio460 wrote:
The same could be said for a number of crafts—still photography, television production, etc. Since the dawn of DSLRs, still photographers' rates and agency royalties have plummeted. Thanks to digital publishing, my own work has been used time and again without permission or payment.

Television outlets have replaced expensive professional operators and sound-recordists with $12/hour PAs wielding iPhones on $150 gimbals (the tripods we use where I work cost $9,000, and just a few years ago the cameras we used cost $90,000, each mounted with a $35,000 lens).


I am not in that business but understand what you are saying.

I made the statement that quality ( pro level) has been swallowed by quantity
( mediocre ).

Back to music, I have zero expectation of ever making a dime in song writing, publishing, etc. I am into it strictly for the sake of artistic expression plus expanding interest in it.

I feel my originality is set free by not being constrained by financial considerations.

When I have casual conversations around town on music, I am asked " are you making a lot of money ?"

Absolutely not. Look at my 10 year old car. Artistic expression does not have to have a money more money dependency.

I get puzzled expressions from folks when I assert that, as if I am from another planet Smile
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jeremykeys
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very glad this thread was started.

Here in Toronto we have a radio station called Q107. It's mainly a classic rock station but at times it feels like the playlist is about 50 songs long. They play the same songs over and over ad nauseum. The same 4 Zepillin songs, the same 4 Tom Petty's etc. No Genesis from before Duke. Did you know the band Yes only had one song? According to the radio they did.

The article mention continuity. On this station there is none at all. Fleetwood Mac's Dreams would follow Metallica's Enter Sandman. It's almost impossible to get any new music that fit into the rock genre here. Mind you if it's Pop or Hip Hop, you can get all of it. now I have no problem with that but I think this should apply to all genres of music.

I also have a hard time with the "dumbing down" of music. Ask yourself this. If Pink Floyd came out today, would they be able to survive? I tend to think not. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a big prog rock fan.
The only way I find out about any new stuff is by diligently searching for it. I remember recently playing some for a friend's teenage son and they simply didn't know what to make of it. He looked board after about 30 seconds because they hadn't thrown a few hooks at him yet. Sad but true.

As for making money out of music. good freaking luck. Pirating has always existed but now it's at the point where for a lot of people, it's the accepted norm. My brother hasn't paid for music or movies for years. But then he also couldn't care less about the artists and liner notes.

Sorry for the rant. It's just that these things really bug me.
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