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Bisonboris
Joined: 24 May 2018 Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: Phantompowering balanced outputs on Kronos |
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Hey guys, I'm wondering if any of you know what happens to the Kronos if it's accidentally phantompowered? Does it break or is it ok? For example I'm thinking of buying cables that have balanced 1/4" TRS in one end and XLR in the other so that i will never have to use a DI-box but then I'm a bit worried that a sound engineer will accidentally press on the phantompower and my Kronos break and therefore just stick to plain old DI-boxing to prevent it from happening. Anybody have any experience in this? _________________ Kronos 73 |
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geoelectro Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2012 Posts: 1038 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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I repair keyboards and yes, applying phantom power to the outputs is BAD. I just repaired a Yamaha Motif for this reason.
In the Kronos, the outputs go unprotected to the muting transistors and output of the op-amps. I always recommend using DI-boxes for protection.
Geo _________________ Kronos 61 : 3GB RAM 120GB 2nd Drv.
Kronos 2 61
Synthesizers.com Custom Modular
N.I. Komplete 11, Omnisphere 2, VB-3.
HP i7 8GB Win 10
Yamaha P-80 Weighted Keyboard. NanoPad2 |
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NormC Full Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 Posts: 158
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Phantompowering balanced outputs on Kronos |
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Bisonboris wrote: | Hey guys, I'm wondering if any of you know what happens to the Kronos if it's accidentally phantompowered? Does it break or is it ok? For example I'm thinking of buying cables that have balanced 1/4" TRS in one end and XLR in the other so that i will never have to use a DI-box but then I'm a bit worried that a sound engineer will accidentally press on the phantompower and my Kronos break and therefore just stick to plain old DI-boxing to prevent it from happening. Anybody have any experience in this? |
A DI box is not a cable adapter. Buying a TRS to XLR does not eliminate the need for one. I recommend one to protect your equipment from FOH mistakes. I bought a Key Largo which provides a great mixer and DI in one unit. _________________ Kronos 2 73 |
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ChrisDuncan Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2018 Posts: 389
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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geoelectro wrote: | I always recommend using DI-boxes for protection.
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Hey, Geo.
I've been playing long enough that I really should know this, but I figure asking a stupid question is better than risking a stupid event.
Assuming I'm running a quality DI box (Radial, et al), is that going to 100% protect the Kronos if some yahoo pushes the phantom power button on the mixer?
And if so, at what cost - does the DI take the hit and lay down its life in service to the Kronos, or does everyone walk away unscathed and live to fight another day?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be down in the basement at the remedial electronics class... _________________ Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
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Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth |
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NormC Full Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 Posts: 158
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Most DI boxes use a transformer to isolate the primary (instrument) side from the secondary (house) side. The transformers are rated to allow the 48 volt DC phantom power to be applied to the output or secondary side without damage. The output circuit will have a high enough impedance to keep current low. A quality DI like Radial will not be harmed by accidental phantom power turn on and it will not pass the 48 V DC to the instrument because it is DC. Transformers only pass AC voltages or signals. _________________ Kronos 2 73 |
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ChrisDuncan Senior Member
Joined: 17 May 2018 Posts: 389
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent. Thanks, Norm! _________________ Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth |
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Bisonboris
Joined: 24 May 2018 Posts: 2
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Phantompowering balanced outputs on Kronos |
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NormC wrote: | Bisonboris wrote: | Hey guys, I'm wondering if any of you know what happens to the Kronos if it's accidentally phantompowered? Does it break or is it ok? For example I'm thinking of buying cables that have balanced 1/4" TRS in one end and XLR in the other so that i will never have to use a DI-box but then I'm a bit worried that a sound engineer will accidentally press on the phantompower and my Kronos break and therefore just stick to plain old DI-boxing to prevent it from happening. Anybody have any experience in this? |
A DI box is not a cable adapter. Buying a TRS to XLR does not eliminate the need for one. I recommend one to protect your equipment from FOH mistakes. I bought a Key Largo which provides a great mixer and DI in one unit. |
Thank you for all the great answers, I'll just keep using DI boxes then! But another question popped up in my head. Isn't the purpose of a DI box to convert an unbalanced signal to a balanced one? So if I use an unbalanced TRS cable it transforms the signal so that an XLR cable (which is balanced) can transport the signal a far distance without getting a bad signal. But if I use a BALANCED TRS cable, what purpose does the DI box serve since it doesn't have the need to be converted? _________________ Kronos 73 |
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geoelectro Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2012 Posts: 1038 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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It blocks phantom power. Also, many keyboards don't have balanced outputs or low impedance so it converts those. I use a Radial stereo box so easy setup.
Geo _________________ Kronos 61 : 3GB RAM 120GB 2nd Drv.
Kronos 2 61
Synthesizers.com Custom Modular
N.I. Komplete 11, Omnisphere 2, VB-3.
HP i7 8GB Win 10
Yamaha P-80 Weighted Keyboard. NanoPad2 |
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NormC Full Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 Posts: 158
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Phantompowering balanced outputs on Kronos |
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Bisonboris wrote: |
Isn't the purpose of a DI box to convert an unbalanced signal to a balanced one? So if I use an unbalanced TRS cable it transforms the signal so that an XLR cable (which is balanced) can transport the signal a far distance without getting a bad signal. But if I use a BALANCED TRS cable, what purpose does the DI box serve since it doesn't have the need to be converted? |
No, the purpose of a DI box is to isolate your instruments from the house wiring. It does this by means of a transformer. Transformers block DC like phantom power supplies or other wiring errors from FOH. A transformer will easily provide a balanced signal. Balanced is better as you said. Another benefit of a DI is the ability to lift the ground. This is useful if you have a ground loop which can cause an audible hum or buzz. Just using a balanced cable to connect to the FOH does not give you any protections. _________________ Kronos 2 73 |
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