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Competition & Markets Authority Investigation
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D575
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Competition & Markets Authority Investigation Reply with quote

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/27/guitar-maker-fender-four-japanese-musical-instrument-manufacturers/
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, read that this morning. No evidence of wrong doing yet, but the fact they are being looked at is interesting.....
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D575
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Cook wrote:
Yeah, read that this morning. No evidence of wrong doing yet, but the fact they are being looked at is interesting.....
Yes... certainly interesting to see what the truth is there.....time will tell Confused
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Mr_SamDoogie
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a strange article is it real or fake news. Why do they include names from artist in the article its just to weird.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_SamDoogie wrote:
What a strange article is it real or fake news. Why do they include names from artist in the article its just to weird.


Common practise when trying to fill page space and talking about musical instrument companies to name check artists. Always when talking of Fender must a 'journalist' mention Hendrix, it's some rule of their's. Like if Moog was in there Keith Emerson would have to be mentioned. I find it funny that all the artists mentioned are ancient 'cept for Lady Gaga's keyboardist (isn't she a pianist?).
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_SamDoogie wrote:
What a strange article is it real or fake news. Why do they include names from artist in the article its just to weird.


I thought the article was odd. Some of it sounded ' inserted' as if tn attempt to round the so called story.

Whats doubly odd is that Korg and Yamahas HQ's are in Japan.

Going to country distributors office seems like a stretch.

How does that work ?

" We are here from CMA. Whats in that file cabinet ? "

'Would you like some tea ? Mostly marketing brochures from 10 yrs ago in that cabinet "

Where is Monty Python ? Wink
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if this article is about price fixing..

Then Yamaha is the big evil..
I know two local dealers who lost their dealerships
For selling to cheap..

Yamaha is definately fixing pricing, and forcing their dealers to keep them up..


I don't think Korg really influences sales prices of Korg products, atleast there dealers seem to have much more freedom.

Anyway, a good example is the Yamaha Genos... production costs < €200.
Sales prices €4000, that definately sounds fishy to me...
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
if this article is about price fixing..

Then Yamaha is the big evil..
I know two local dealers who lost their dealerships
For selling to cheap..

Yamaha is definately fixing pricing, and forcing their dealers to keep them up..


I don't think Korg really influences sales prices of Korg products, atleast there dealers seem to have much more freedom.

Anyway, a good example is the Yamaha Genos... production costs < €200.
Sales prices €4000, that definately sounds fishy to me...


Would guess many of us feel prices. esp older gear, is pushed , to stay high at retail.

Here in the US, MSRP is the vehicle. There are quiet inducements to a retailer to not stray from MSRP. Its been going on for a few decades.
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dfahrner
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
...Anyway, a good example is the Yamaha Genos... production costs < €200. Sales prices €4000, that definately sounds fishy to me...

Where does this cost-of-production figure come from, Bachus? Does it include parts costs? Production facility overhead? ??? It's hard to believe that such a large, complex device can be produced that cheaply, particularly when the quantity is so low as compared to mass-market commercial products like laptops and TVs...

df
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nitecrawler
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="GregC"]
Bachus wrote:
if this article is about price fixing..

Here in the US, MSRP is the vehicle. There are quiet inducements to a retailer to not stray from MSRP. Its been going on for a few decades.


Never understood inducements. If a third party retailer feels he can make a profit at a reduced price then why not let him. Price for new instruments are strangely "like priced" most wherever you look. Confused
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voip
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anyway, a good example is the Yamaha Genos... production costs < €200. Sales prices €4000, that definately sounds fishy to me....


Agree with dfahrner. €200 does sound rather optimistic. Assembly and test alone would probably account for that amount. This certainly isn't a mass production item. The software development and maintenance carries a hefty price tag to it. Certification to the various required standards is an expensive process, with recurring costs for annual review.

Consider, just for comparison, and for factoring into the manufacturing costs, that some of the high end PCB and mechanical design software can be in the region of $40,000 per seat per year.

.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="nitecrawler"]
GregC wrote:
Bachus wrote:
if this article is about price fixing..

Here in the US, MSRP is the vehicle. There are quiet inducements to a retailer to not stray from MSRP. Its been going on for a few decades.


Never understood inducements. If a third party retailer feels he can make a profit at a reduced price then why not let him. Price for new instruments are strangely "like priced" most wherever you look. Confused


my context of ' inducements' was related to maintaining MSRP. The manufacturer sets MSRP ( here in the US).

The retailer is required to follow it. Lets play 'what if'. A retailer starts selling a $3000 keyboard at their cost + 2%.

As consumers do price compares, to get the best deal, many retailers see their sales flop unless they price match.

So MSRP becomes meaningless as the new 'street price ' takes over. Every other retailer complains to the mgr... " WTF are you going to do about this mess ?"

The mfgr quietly non allocates the next shipment supply of that $3000 keyboard
to the retailer who made a mess of MSRP. Thats an example of an 'inducement '
to play nice with MSRP.

Keep in mind, the above example is dated. I have no 1st hand view of what takes place currently. But I do note that MSRP and holding the line on price has definitely stabilized in the past 1-2 yrs.
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nitecrawler
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the manufacturer wants to control his pricing to the end use customer then they should only distribute through manufacturer owned distribution centers as retail sales points. To force an independently owned distributor to hold to an arbitrary fixed price point they determine is, on its face, price fixing, plain and simple. You can call it what you want but that is the bottom line. I feel it harms the ability of the end use customer to find his or her best available price and should not be practiced.
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megamarkd
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be nice if we could have a situation where there is a "sale" tag on almost every product from particular vendors when their "sale" is based on the fact they have lopped $50 off the RRP. It's not on sale if you never charged the RRP to start with.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfahrner wrote:
Bachus wrote:
...Anyway, a good example is the Yamaha Genos... production costs < €200. Sales prices €4000, that definately sounds fishy to me...

Where does this cost-of-production figure come from, Bachus? Does it include parts costs? Production facility overhead? ??? It's hard to believe that such a large, complex device can be produced that cheaply, particularly when the quantity is so low as compared to mass-market commercial products like laptops and TVs...

df


Its just the prices of the physical parts..
Comes from an Indonesian site..

And it shows in every aspect of the Genos
- cheep plastic buildquallity
- low light, low resolution screen
- simple knobs instead of rotary encoders
- No high end processing power, but still the same old 2 decades old in their main design processors... imagine what a single ARM could have done for these kind of instruments.. or just a real stream processor..

everything breathes saving as much dollars on the hardware parts.
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