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Delay Effects : 2 of them seem to be useless
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Delay Effects : 2 of them seem to be useless Reply with quote

Hello,

Paying attention to the delay effects, I've remarked that two of them seem to be useless.
Have a look at 077 : L/C/R Delay and 078: L/C/R Long Delay.
You will see exactly the same settings for the both. The only difference stands on Maximum delay time (2730 msec for the first one, 5460 ms for the second one).
So I don't see what might be the interest in using the first effect, as the second can do the same thing !!

I saw the same issue between 079: Stereo/Cross Delay and 080: Stereo/Cross Long Delay. And again, between 091 and 092, and between 093 and 094.

So, it wouldn't be 2 useless effetcs, as I said in the title, but 4 !

What do you think ? Did I miss something ?
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StephenKay
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's entirely possible/likely that the "long" versions have a reduced frequency response or bit-rate/resolution. There are trade-offs necessary in getting such a long delay time. Given that it's a delay effect, you might not really be able to hear the difference.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StephenKay wrote:
It's entirely possible/likely that the "long" versions have a reduced frequency response or bit-rate/resolution. There are trade-offs necessary in getting such a long delay time. Given that it's a delay effect, you might not really be able to hear the difference.


Yes Stephen, you're possibly right. But finally, it results the same : if we're not able to hear the difference, is it useful ?
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robw70
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might also be different resource usage - memory, cpu load etc. These might effect polyphony count and so forth.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robw70 wrote:
Might also be different resource usage - memory, cpu load etc. These might effect polyphony count and so forth.


I will test it with the ressources evaluation tool. But, as regards the polyphony, I didn't see any information about a particular decrease with the use of effects.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Delay Effects : 2 of them seem to be useless Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Hello,

Paying attention to the delay effects, I've remarked that two of them seem to be useless.
Have a look at 077 : L/C/R Delay and 078: L/C/R Long Delay.
You will see exactly the same settings for the both. The only difference stands on Maximum delay time (2730 msec for the first one, 5460 ms for the second one).
So I don't see what might be the interest in using the first effect, as the second can do the same thing !!

I saw the same issue between 079: Stereo/Cross Delay and 080: Stereo/Cross Long Delay. And again, between 091 and 092, and between 093 and 094.

So, it wouldn't be 2 useless effetcs, as I said in the title, but 4 !

What do you think ? Did I miss something ?


Yes you are missing something.

Test them or A/B your examples in the SEQ.

Strike a piano chord at 80 BPM , using #77 as an insert FX
Run the metronome

Listen for exactly where the 1st echo sounds out.

Then do the same exact test using #78 .
Listen for exactly where the 1st echo sounds out
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Greg, thanks. I will try that.
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StephenKay
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
StephenKay wrote:
It's entirely possible/likely that the "long" versions have a reduced frequency response or bit-rate/resolution. There are trade-offs necessary in getting such a long delay time. Given that it's a delay effect, you might not really be able to hear the difference.


Yes Stephen, you're possibly right. But finally, it results the same : if we're not able to hear the difference, is it useful ?


What I meant was: in a fully produced track, you might not be able to hear the difference. And, it's quite often a production technique to reduce the bandwidth of a delay effect so it doesn't step on other things anyway. Just checking it all by itself, you might be able to hear it. Anyway, give it a try. Smile
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did several tests. Sounds alone, and inside SEQ (as suggested by Greg) :

Given the same settings (time, Wet/Dry, etc...), I didn't hear the least difference between effect 077 and effect 078. 078, as a long delay, produce the exact same qualitiy of sound as 077.

I tried in SEQ mode (with Metronome and so on) and the behavior of echoes was the same in both cases.

So, if you heard a difference, could you please tell me what settings you are using ?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Well, I did several tests. Sounds alone, and inside SEQ (as suggested by Greg) :

Given the same settings (time, Wet/Dry, etc...), I didn't hear the least difference between effect 077 and effect 078. 078, as a long delay, produce the exact same qualitiy of sound as 077.

I tried in SEQ mode (with Metronome and so on) and the behavior of echoes was the same in both cases.

So, if you heard a difference, could you please tell me what settings you are using ?


big diff in delay times. These are factory defaults:

Fx 77 : 600 1000 400

Fx 78: 1600 2000 1400

If your K does not show this, your factory default settings got changed
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Well, I did several tests. Sounds alone, and inside SEQ (as suggested by Greg) :

Given the same settings (time, Wet/Dry, etc...), I didn't hear the least difference between effect 077 and effect 078. 078, as a long delay, produce the exact same qualitiy of sound as 077.

I tried in SEQ mode (with Metronome and so on) and the behavior of echoes was the same in both cases.

So, if you heard a difference, could you please tell me what settings you are using ?


big diff in delay times. These are factory defaults:

Fx 77 : 600 1000 400

Fx 78: 1600 2000 1400

If your K does not show this, your factory default settings got changed


Of course factory defaults are different. But that's not the point here. The point is the fact that Fx 78 covers all the delay times range of the FX 77, and adds to that all its own range. So, my conclusion is : FX 77 is useless !!
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does #77 use less computing resource than #78

That would be a reason for selecting it over the longer one if you were trying to stack in many effects?

I don't know the answer myself, just postulating Smile
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Cook wrote:
Does #77 use less computing resource than #78

That would be a reason for selecting it over the longer one if you were trying to stack in many effects?

I don't know the answer myself, just postulating Smile


I just checked it. Based on an HD-1 initialize prog, I just added one IFX (all other slots are off) First with FX 077 then with fx 078.

In the first case, Effects CPU display blinks between 0% and 1%. On the scond cas, it blinks between 0% and 1% too.

As there is no more precise tool, I can only say that 077 uses the same computing ressource than 078.
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Smile
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Smile
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