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GatesOfDelirium
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: Korg Kronos as a controller for PA4X |
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I am toying with the idea of using my Kronos, esp Set list, to control the PA4X. Is this a good idea ?.
Do any users have experience of this or know what the potential limitations or advantages would be.
I'm looking for ideas or suggestions as to what maybe possible.
Kind regards
Michael
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Korg PA4X, Korg Kronos 73, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Yamaha MOXF8, Motif ES 61. |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Korg Kronos as a controller for PA4X |
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| GatesOfDelirium wrote: | | .. idea of using my Kronos .. to control the PA4X .. what the potential limitations or advantages would be .. |
Ideas which functions of the Pa4x you want to remotely control with the Kronos would have to come from yourself.
If one MIDI device is to be remotely controlled by another, both devices must understand the Midi commands used.
Limitation generally is: a transmitter (Kronos) must be able to send Midi events which the Receiver (Pa4x) can receive and you would realize as a function.
Pa4x is prepared for remote control and recognizes and processes all midi events as stated in the implementation (Manual Page 1114).
It also is possible to use Control Changes and their effect on various functions of the instrument for controlling parameters of sounds and drumkit instruments (Manual Page 899 - 901).
Additional a special MIDI channel is available (Control channel) to select the SongBook Entries (via NRPN) or to receive MIDI messages - like BankSelect and ProgrChange - to select remotely:
- Style Elements (Intros, Variations, Fills, Break, Endings)
- Style and Player controls (Fade In / Out, Style to Kbd Set, Auto Fill, Memory, Bass Inversion, Manual Bass, Tempo Lock, Start / Play / Stop (Arranger)
- Keyboard Sets from a Style or SongBook Entry
There is also a Global Special channel to simulate Pa4X's integrated controllers (keyboard, pedals, joystick) to simlate Pa4x functions (KeyboardSplit, ChordRecognition etc) with external keyboard or controllers.
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What Midi events you could send with Kronos you will find in its MIDI Implementation Chart (Manual Page 296) and for some more information see “Connecting MIDI devices & computers” on page 1143 of the Parameter Guide.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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GatesOfDelirium
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you so much Siebenhirter very informative and much appreciated.
My initial idea was to use setlist on the Kronos to select combis for RH sounds and use songbook or setlists to call up/trigger MP3 backing or indeed styles from songbook on PA4X.
I hope that makes sense.
Kind regards
Michael
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Korg PA4X, Korg Kronos 73, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Yamaha MOXF8, Motif ES 61. |
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GatesOfDelirium
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 21
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:50 pm Post subject: Kronos remote controls Pa4x |
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| GatesOfDelirium wrote: | | After reading this topic .. I fear there may be restrictions as to what I wanted to do. .. |
In the link mentioned it was explained the sb-setlists of Pa-Keyboards are links to a selection of sb-entries and that numbered sb-entries can be retrieved via NRPN commands via midi-remote (manual page 114 of Pa4x). Thus a sb-setlist is a selection of existing sb-entries to be accessed remotely via NRPN (but not via BankSelect/PrgChg).
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If your Kronos can send the Midi commands described on page 114 of Pa4x (NRPN CC # 99 = 2, NRPN CC # 98 LSB = 64, CC # 06 = thousands, hundreds, CC # 38 = tens and units), then the corresponding sb-entry of the sb-setlist of a Pa-Keyboard will be selected!
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Whether and which Midi events your Kronos sends when selecting their set list via Midi-Out, I have recommended you to look in the Midi implementation of the Kronos and the brochure "Connecting MIDI devices & computers". This booklet is relatively comprehensive and so I do not think that questions and their answers in this forum can be described in a few sentences.
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As far as I know, Kronos - if using its setlist is not the same as setlist of Pa keyboards, because of selecting a Slot of Kronos sends Program Change and Bank Selects messages. When selected, Combinations and Songs can transmit other Program Change and Bank Select messages on other channels, as well as in Combination and Sequencer modes. But Global P0 Bank Map (Korg, GM (2)) parameter does not affect the transmission of Set List Program and Bank Select messages.
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So if you need NRPN messages for Pa-Setlist you do not get NRPN messages from Kronos if using its setlist, but only get simple Bankselect / PrgChanges, unusable for sb-list-selection (but for some other remote controls of Pa-Keyboards that work with these commands).
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If you want to remotely-control some Pa-functions via BankSelect / ProgramChange-Messages you could do this via Track status (P2 - Midi Page) set to EXT, EX2 or BTH, so operating KRONOS's keyboard and controllers will sound and control an external tone generator like a Pa-Keyboard. Settings maybe saved as template song.
Detailed information can be found in the manual "Synchronizing the playback of KARMA or sequencer" on page 1154 - just as extensive and not easy to answer with just a few sentences.
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To summarize, it's easy to describe which Midi events a Pa keyboard needs for its remote control - it's a little harder to figure out if and how to generate the corresponding midi events with the Kronos.
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If you fear there may be restrictions it would be necessary, to study manuals of Kronos. Using Kronos as a second Manual for transmission of Midi-Notes seems to be easy - to be used as Masterkeyboard seems not to be a good idea, even simple midi controllers (Nano-Control) seems to be more suitable for remote-controlled functions.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I have come to the conclusion that keeping it simple works best for me...
And so i use channel 15 on pa4x for chord recognition..
And to every combo i create on kronos i add this channel 15..
So i can controll pa4x accompaniments from Kronos..
(I am also using channel 14 to controll mainstage and channel 16 is set for global)
This gives me the full freedom of combining sounds on the Kronos with the pa4x in arranger mode... so using both setlists in paralel... it allways felt like to much fuzz to set both up and combine them in a single list..
Biggest advantage, if i replace the Pa4x some day, i will be able to still use all my kronos combi’s with the new arranger...
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Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3595
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Korg Kronos as a controller for PA4X |
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| GatesOfDelirium wrote: | | I am toying with the idea of using my Kronos, esp Set list, to control the PA4X. Is this a good idea ? |
Contrary , I believe that when using an arranger it's better to control Kronos instead via Pa4X as I do for my gigs since Pa3X age.
This way you will extend sound library with demanding sound libraries like pianos , symphonic brass & strings orchestras and analog
engines that Kronos can provide via premium EXs with GBs of streaming quality samples that PaSeries can't handle yet , just using
KBD set patches of Pa4X assigned with Kronos Combis via midi channels.
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Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Korg Kronos as a controller for PA4X |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | | .. when using an arranger it's better to control Kronos instead via Pa4X .. |
I also think Anthony's solution is the better one - Kronos so can be used in parallel as a second manual, if you decide alternately in Pa4x whether the realtime messages (Lower / Upper) should be sent via Midi-Out or not (settings of the tracks intern / external / both) or should be filtered by note-events, to use Pa4x only for changing soundsettings of Kronos.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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GatesOfDelirium
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys it never even crossed my mind to use the PA4X as the controller.
I wonder if anyone has made a video of their setup. It would be very interesting to actually visualise what could be achieved.
Kind regards
Michael
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Korg PA4X, Korg Kronos 73, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Yamaha MOXF8, Motif ES 61. |
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davekalbach
Senior Member
Joined: 19 May 2018
Posts: 343
Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Just curious how you made out.
I added a Pa4x to my setup today. I was originally planning on setting the Kronos on the second tier, making the Pa4x the MIDI Controller. However once I set it up that way I just didn't care as much for the Pa4x's keyboard.
The Kronos is a bit heavier and just slightly wider, so I switched them around.
Kronos is on bottom (preferred keybed) and is the MIDI controller. I can trigger the Chords and Sequences on the Pa4x, but I can't get the righthand to play the Accompaniment Parts (Upper 1, 2, and 3) - I think there may be a way to do this in the Global Settings - I'll keep working on it.
Is there a way to make the Pa4x the Master, utilizing the stronger engines of the Kronos, yet still use the Kronos keyboard as the main input device? I don't think its possible, but figured I'd ask.
-- Dave
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Dave Kalbach
Music Newbie
Bear with Me 
Kronos 2, Pa5X, Drumlogue, Stageman 80, Korg D32XD Recorder
Many Guitars, Roland TD-6 V-Drums, a Trumpet (HELP)
And a Kimball Baby Grand Piano |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10399
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| davekalbach wrote: | | Just curious how you made out. |
Hi Dave - I replied to you here on May 1st:-
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111868&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Did that not work for you?
| davekalbach wrote: | | Is there a way to make the Pa4x the Master, utilizing the stronger engines of the Kronos, yet still use the Kronos keyboard as the main input device? I don't think its possible, but figured I'd ask. |
This seems to work but not in a 100% global MIDI fashion like the other way around (KK being the master MC)
Cheers
Pete 
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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davekalbach
Senior Member
Joined: 19 May 2018
Posts: 343
Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 3:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Pete,
I missed one step - I set the Pa4x to MIDI Channel in = 1 (not global). I was thinking the MIDI Out number is like a handshake. MIDI OUT 1 Looks for a Device on MIDI IN 1.
I will switch it to Global tomorrow morning and check it.
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Side note, I ran KK Midi Out to Pa Midi In, and Pa Midi Out to KK Midid In.
I noticed some strange things on the Kronos. A couple of my Arps slowed down tremendously. Not sure how it happened, I am thinking it got some data from the Midi In, but not sure.
I'll check the Midi Settings in the morning and test it again.
Thanks as always Pete
-- Dave
PS - Took some pictures - setup looks fantastic!!!
https://ibb.co/4dXbxd4
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Dave Kalbach
Music Newbie
Bear with Me
Kronos 2, Pa5X, Drumlogue, Stageman 80, Korg D32XD Recorder
Many Guitars, Roland TD-6 V-Drums, a Trumpet (HELP)
And a Kimball Baby Grand Piano |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10399
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi Dave
| Quote: | I ran KK Midi Out to Pa Midi In, and Pa Midi Out to KK Midi In
I noticed some strange things on the Kronos |
That's the problem!!
Just KK MIDI out to PA MIDI in to use KK as MIDI controller - one cable.
On KK you would typically just use a PROGRAM and have LOCAL OFF - like a piano - this should use CHANNEL 1 (usual KK default) which will match the PA4X input CHANNEL 1 set to "GLOBAL"
Your KK is now a MIDI CONTROLLER - you can use it as a PA4X keybed.
If you are wanting to "switch" MIDI controllers (i.e. to the other way around) then reconnect the MIDI cable (PA4X out to KK in) avoid using 2 MIDI cables connected between the keyboards.
Hope this makes sense....
Pete
P.S. setup looks great - what speakers are you using and how do the cope with bass and drums sounds?
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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davekalbach
Senior Member
Joined: 19 May 2018
Posts: 343
Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: |
P.S. setup looks great - what speakers are you using and how do the cope with bass and drums sounds? |
Speakers are Yamaha HS-8's and I love them. I wish I had some more room to let them breathe a little better.
Due to the positioning I use a cut base switch located on the speaker. The switch is designed to help compensate for poor speaker locations (close to walls)
_________________
Dave Kalbach
Music Newbie
Bear with Me
Kronos 2, Pa5X, Drumlogue, Stageman 80, Korg D32XD Recorder
Many Guitars, Roland TD-6 V-Drums, a Trumpet (HELP)
And a Kimball Baby Grand Piano |
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davekalbach
Senior Member
Joined: 19 May 2018
Posts: 343
Location: Reading, PA
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: |
Just KK MIDI out to PA MIDI in to use KK as MIDI controller - one cable.
On KK you would typically just use a PROGRAM and have LOCAL OFF - like a piano - this should use CHANNEL 1 (usual KK default) which will match the PA4X input CHANNEL 1 set to "GLOBAL"
Your KK is now a MIDI CONTROLLER - you can use it as a PA4X keybed.
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Edited....
I had originally used Channel 16 which I think is the Kronos default. While this worked, it had an additional effect in that the Kronos always sends MIDI data on the selected GLOBAL channel. This meant that when I'd play something on the KRONOS setlist, it would also send signals to the Pa4X.
I then did as you suggested, and created a Combi (probably should have used a Program) and setup Channel 1 EXT. But this created a new problem where I was getting this Bell Ring while playing the Kronos. To correct this I had to turn OFF Midi IN Channel 16 on the Pa4X (Default Setting is Play Track 16)
All is working and I learned a little about MIDI.
Thank you!
_________________
Dave Kalbach
Music Newbie
Bear with Me
Kronos 2, Pa5X, Drumlogue, Stageman 80, Korg D32XD Recorder
Many Guitars, Roland TD-6 V-Drums, a Trumpet (HELP)
And a Kimball Baby Grand Piano |
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