Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

MIDI Out on stereo minijack ?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> KORG Volca Series
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ShoNuff
Full Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: MIDI Out on stereo minijack ? Reply with quote

saw it suggested that minijack used for MIDI should not be
hot-inserted while the unit is on - due to possibility of short?

is this true? what precautions should be observed with minijack midi?

(what happens if someone accidentally connects it to a mixer input
for example?)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OpAmp
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 Jun 2013
Posts: 1173
Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which Volca has MIDI out on a stereo jack?
_________________
microKORGXL, Kaossilator Pro, monotribe, SQ-1, volca fm, Kross 88 BK
Alesis SR18, Akai Miniak, Fender Strat, Line 6 Spider II 112, Zoom MS-50G
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShoNuff
Full Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://cdm.link/2015/08/used-stereo-minijack-cables-midi/

none as stock. SQ1 uses a minijack for midi out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
megamarkd
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2017
Posts: 635
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
http://cdm.link/2015/08/used-stereo-minijack-cables-midi/

none as stock. SQ1 uses a minijack for midi out.


Ah, the article uses a lot of words and a little bit of hyperbole to say that the minijack-MIDI pinouts can be different from company to company. Connecting Korg to Korg bypassing the 3.5mm->DIN shouldn't be a problem, just don't do it with any other company's gear to a Korg synth.
Hotplugging MIDI isn't an issue, it's when the wiring is flipped that the problem occurs. Korg have the tip and the ring wired to opposite pins of the MIDI DIN connector when compared to everyone else doing MIDI on 3.5mm trs leads.

He does bring up at the end the nice idea of standardising 3.5mm MIDI wiring (had your irony tablets today?) and that would be nice, though history is full of stories of MIDI being basically de-standardised and represented as an 'enhanced' form in an effort to force the "I just want to plug and play" users into buying gear from only one maker. Korg never participated in those shenanigans but now they've started doing it one way, it'll be hard to swap. Nothing says they can't but would need to give massive warnings to not connect using stereo minijack leads on any future product using minijack MIDI.

Now I've sorta mentioned elsewhere how much I don't like that Sonic State video showing Volcas being run via MIDI off a headphone splitter as it's misleading, it's not until now have I thought of what sort of carnage can be done if a Beatstep Pro was hooked up to a bevvy of Volcas using one of those star splitters....

Oh yeah, I noticed on the Arturia site they mention with the Beatstep Pro cable adapter pack that the BSP DIN->minijack adapters shouldn't be used for the Beatstep (original). I checked out the adapter kit for the Beatstep and they use a Tip/Sleeve 3.5mm jack, not Tip/Ring/Sleeve, which would sorta point at pin 2 not being connected (no earth?)

tl;dr

  1. It's okay to MIDI hotplug Korg gear to other Korg gear using a regular 3.5mm stereo lead, eg SQ1->Volca, BUT ONLY KORG TO KORG!
  2. DO NOT use a standard 3.5mm stereo lead as a MIDI lead to plug Korg gear to Arturia, Novation or iRig gear. They are wired different and will wreck stuff.

_________________
Stuff I'm using: Umm right now, well there's a Volca Drum, a Micro Freak, an ADX-1, a Pulse, a Blofeld, a UNO Drum, KeyStep/Beatstep Pro/Keystep Pro (one of each), a Circuit, a LiveTrak L-12 and this nonsense: The Brief-case as it was about a bit over a year ago (the the complete ridiculous GAS monster collection here)and here
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShoNuff
Full Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why only korg to korg?

i want this midi out to send midi to a sequencer,
ie yamaha, alesis, DAW etc.

does it make any difference if i put a regular din there?
i just wanted to avoid doing that, that's all.

as it is inserted, a stereo minijack will 'short' the midi
briefly to ground, with the sleeve of the jack. that's what
caused concern.

i didn't read the article in full. i've just seem midi outs done
on minijack, and that seems an easy initial way to get those
midi outs done, on all of them. (don't want to do it on top plate
really if can be avoided, or protruding from the back). don't
even know how much i'll use it, so it's easier to just make
one custom cable, as it will be for experimenting - could be a
useful way of generating midi, or not)

the OEM DINs i have here seem quite stiff as well. can see myself
struggling with a flimsy connection, breaking it, having to re-do, etc.

but i guess the proper midi DIN makes contact on all three pins at
once. - what is the Worst Case scenario? lock up the midi on one
of the machines? worse?

you seem to be saying that different manufacturers have different
implementations. that enters a whole other discussion, about
midi cable connections ... who leaves what unconnected.

also note that the mod that uses the same port for out as in
uses 220kO resistors - but no protection on the hack point outputs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShoNuff
Full Member


Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is worrying me a bit. i should've done this mod ages ago tbh.
went and did loads of outputs on the Beats, with the Snare mod,
(with a spdif 2pin connector+leads, so the capacitor can be pulled
out. will eventually do it as a switch?)
so that zapped my modding energy for a bit.

looking back on that, i would now do MIDI Out mod first, on all,
as a minijack, and see how that works - the hole can then be re-used,
as an audio or signal output for another mod later.

i like the idea of MIDI on stereojack - like a hidden extra - if it's safe
to have it like that. can paint the socket screw/retainer a different
colour, or something. it's a quick interim solution that can be changed to something else later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
megamarkd
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 Aug 2017
Posts: 635
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShoNuff wrote:
why only korg to korg?

i want this midi out to send midi to a sequencer,
ie yamaha, alesis, DAW etc.

does it make any difference if i put a regular din there?
i just wanted to avoid doing that, that's all.

as it is inserted, a stereo minijack will 'short' the midi
briefly to ground, with the sleeve of the jack. that's what
caused concern.

i didn't read the article in full. i've just seem midi outs done
on minijack, and that seems an easy initial way to get those
midi outs done, on all of them. (don't want to do it on top plate
really if can be avoided, or protruding from the back). don't
even know how much i'll use it, so it's easier to just make
one custom cable, as it will be for experimenting - could be a
useful way of generating midi, or not)

the OEM DINs i have here seem quite stiff as well. can see myself
struggling with a flimsy connection, breaking it, having to re-do, etc.

but i guess the proper midi DIN makes contact on all three pins at
once. - what is the Worst Case scenario? lock up the midi on one
of the machines? worse?

you seem to be saying that different manufacturers have different
implementations. that enters a whole other discussion, about
midi cable connections ... who leaves what unconnected.

also note that the mod that uses the same port for out as in
uses 220kO resistors - but no protection on the hack point outputs.


You have a point about shorting the 5v and 0v while connecting/disconnecting though that would only cause problems if there was data being sent over while the connection was being made. That may even answer the author's question about why did they use DIN to start with/never change to a tsr connector.

Won't hurt to put a standard DIN5 socket in there and skip the need for a minijack/DIN converter.

Once I have a MIDI layout in place and I'm happy with it, I don't unplug unless an instrument is going out.
_________________
Stuff I'm using: Umm right now, well there's a Volca Drum, a Micro Freak, an ADX-1, a Pulse, a Blofeld, a UNO Drum, KeyStep/Beatstep Pro/Keystep Pro (one of each), a Circuit, a LiveTrak L-12 and this nonsense: The Brief-case as it was about a bit over a year ago (the the complete ridiculous GAS monster collection here)and here
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OpAmp
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 Jun 2013
Posts: 1173
Location: Brussels, BE

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point of the article is that there are different implementations of MIDI on a stereo mini jack.

So suppose instrument A and B have respectively MIDI out and MIDI in using the stereo mini jack. Unless you've checked it in the spec or somewhere else, it is not guaranteed to work if you connect both devices using a stereo mini jack cable. The article suggests that Korg is the only manufacturer doing things different. So Korg to Korg is (hopefully always) ok. Other brand to other brand as well. Korg and another brand not.

Take the SQ1. It comes with a stereo to DIN converter cable. Using that one in between the SQ1 and a standard MIDI cable it is going to be fine to hook it up to whatever device, because you go from Korg mini jack to standard MIDI over DIN.

Suppose now the wrong connection. Korg to another brand with a stereo jack cable withouth the converter piece. First of all I would not advice to do it or avoid it. But will it cause damage or shorts? I don't think so. In the end it is a standard MIDI interface from electrical point of view, just another wiring/cable. Now the good thing is that all signals of a MIDI interface should have a resistor in the path before going to the connector. So shorts are not possible IMHO during hotplug or miswiring. There is always be a resistor between the 5V and Gnd. At MIDI IN, next to the resistor, there is also a reverse diode installed to protect the HW for polarity problems. So the engineers at that time did foresee some possible issues with cables and protected HW for it. That's why I think it will not cause damage. It simply will not work.

What other problems could hotplug of the stereo jack cause, even if the wiring is good? Little. The receiving device will see some corrupted signals which will either be ignored or misinterpreted. The worst in the latter case is that, it causes a note on event, never followed by a note off event and thus a hanging note.

Bye
_________________
microKORGXL, Kaossilator Pro, monotribe, SQ-1, volca fm, Kross 88 BK
Alesis SR18, Akai Miniak, Fender Strat, Line 6 Spider II 112, Zoom MS-50G
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> KORG Volca Series All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group