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New 2018 MacBook Pro?
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19naia
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:58 am    Post subject: New 2018 MacBook Pro? Reply with quote

So now it seems MacBook is up to 6 cores and a new i9 processor.
Not sure what all that means for me in terms of a sidekick to kronos to run the usual DAW and plugins Kronos users favor,

I already know the upgrade to 32gb of memory is a given for me, but is the i9 processor and 6 core option really going to make a noticeable difference for running Logic pro with Mainstage and a few V-synth suites from Spectrasonic$? And Karma software?

My best guess is that i9 and 6 cores will be useful for video, while using Final Cut. But is it really worth it for DAW work to pair with kronos?
My work with Final Cut pro will be beginner level and i could probably advance fast.

Last i heard here, was that Apple sorted out the issues with Kronos to Mac interface over USB. I hope that stays stable with the latest MacBook pro.
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether the highend MacBook Pro is for you depends quite a bit on your use case.

If you are playing VST instruments using a midi controller and want to listen to what you are playing, you're going to want to have the latency as low as possible. If you are recording an audio signal and applying effects in the DAW, you're also going to aim for the lowest possible latency. The way to get low latency is to keep the audio buffer size as small as possible, which in turn requires the computer to be fast enough to fill it quickly without any hickups, so you'll want to go as high as possible on the specs.

On the other hand, I've been using my MacBook Pro, mid-2014, 13-inch, with its dual-core i5, and I'm nowhere near maxing it out when recording songs with 100+ tracks. But to get there, I:

- kill all other applications (especially web browser) when working in the DAW
- run only a single VST instrument (the drum kit)
- record dry audio tracks at 24-bit, 96KHz (native to my audio interface)
- rely on direct monitoring only, never through DAW
- no effects active while recording*
- when mixing, apply EQ, Comp, etc to each track separately
- when mixing, run reverb**, delay, etc on busses shared by multiple tracks

Even with all effects added, I've yet to surpass 200% load (out of 400% available, dual-core with hyperthreading means 4 virtual cores) on my most complex songs, so for plain audio work, almost any semi-modern CPU will do.

As for the audio interface, I can't find the reference now, but it was stated here on the forum that it was fixed in Mojave. Personally, I switched to a FocusRite Clarett 8Pre while it was broken, and I haven't looked back. I've been meaning to verify that it CAN work, but I haven't dared upgrading the OS due to the fear of something else breaking.


*) Not using effects while recording might seem like a limitation, but I actually very much like it this way. One thing is that it helps me focus on the composition and recording and not having to meddle in the UI while working on music. And it forces me to commit to a given sound, which I prefer. I will tweak the Kronos or guitar or whatever to sound a given way, and then record that, and that is the sound I'll get.

**) Running live reverb in the DAW, at least the built-in one in Reaper, takes an immense amount of CPU to keep running. So when a track is armed for record which is routed into a Reverb effect, I need very large buffers to keep the machine from stuttering. It took me a while to figure this one out, and I blamed a lot of different components (including Kronos USB audio which I was using at the time) before finally figuring it who was to blame.
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tdwctdwc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that the new Macbook Pros with i9 are suffering from thermal throttling when pushed. That's not good if you're playing live.

I would wait it out and see.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tdwctdwc wrote:
I read that the new Macbook Pros with i9 are suffering from thermal throttling when pushed. That's not good if you're playing live.

I would wait it out and see.


Thanks for the info.
I also saw a review about thermal throttling, but i have no clear idea how DAW and music related programs running, would push it.
I saw nothing explaining what kind of programs were being run in the thermal throttling tests.
But a lot of good hints that high resolution video rendering is the usual issue.

I doubt i would be pushing the system any harder than i would be pushing two kronos keyboards to the maximum.

I suspect that if older macbook models with 4 cores and i7 or i5 processors have been good enough for people with Logic pro, main stage and spectrasonics Keyscape plus Omnisphere, then 6 cores and i9 processor would hardly be a thermal throttle issue, even if i added a few extra high grade plugins to the setup.
And your 100 tracks together, running smooth on a previous Macbook model with less power? I cannot even imagine getting up to 64 tracks unless i split the work load of my usual tracks into multiple tracks.

I am thinking or guessing that the thermal throttle demo i saw, was based on computer aficionados who see the specs and the related function capacity and then load the computer up with tasks that require the performance parameters of those specs, i9 by its function rating , the 6 cores, and then they review the thermal throttle characteristics based on loading the device up to its capacity.
I don’t kmow how to decopipher the difference between i9 function and i7 function. And then hearing that some people got no difference between having i7 over i5 or that the core count was what made the real difference for them.

I saw a thermal throttle demo showing auto throttling down to as low as 2.6ghz when it was set to turbo boost up to 4.+ ghz.
I have yet to see a DAW or Spectrasonics package that has a minimum system requirement above 2.6ghz. Some are even as low as 1.8ghz.
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BobTheDog
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anybody seen any reports of thermal throttling apart from the one guy on YouTube?
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobTheDog wrote:
Has anybody seen any reports of thermal throttling apart from the one guy on YouTube?


A good source of info (comments):

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-i9-macbook-pro-throttling-discussion-merged.2127869/
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19naia
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Poseidon.

Looks like Software optimization for the new CPU and new 6 core count may be behind the thermal throttling.

Also it was faster everywhere else except the one area of unrendered 4k video compression.

Software optimization can come later and they probably just wanted to roll it out without letting slow software development keep sales delayed.
They will come back with a software update for it. I doubt Apple would let the thermal throttling issue come up without understanding something about it -like the new CPU being designd with higher heat capacity and a software optimization already in progress.

I bet it would be faster with DAW stuff and not push the limit easily there.

What i saw with Final Cut, was not bad at all for my amateur work flow.
Both are faster than anything i ever had, so i would not really be bothered by the i9 lag.
If i got that serious with video production, i would get an iMac pro or Mac Pro.

These Macbook enthusiasts are pushing the new Macbook pro with tasks that apple designed iMac Pro for.
Apple makes several product lines to handle several levels of work load.
Mac book pro 2018 brings improvements, and i am not going to get distracted by it not living up to iMac pro performance.

Will keep an eye open for any news about software optimization for Macbook pro 2018, and then decide what i really think of it.
As usual, the traditional long wait to get new releases sorted out for bugs and optimization. Same with Kronos.
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

19naia wrote:
And your 100 tracks together, running smooth on a previous Macbook model with less power? I cannot even imagine getting up to 64 tracks unless i split the work load of my usual tracks into multiple tracks.


I should have specified a bit. There are 100+ individual tracks with stuff, but they're of course not all playing at the same time, but some effects suck up juice even when the track is silent, so it still adds up. At the very most, there will be:
4x guitar tracks
1x bass
1 MIDI Drum track which outputs to
10x audio channels coming from drum kit
2x lead vocals
6x choirs
3x synth
a few effect busses

and then a few effects busses (once I get to mixing stage), so lets say an absolute max of about 30 active, playing tracks. And I use mostly Reaper's built-in plugins. But I frequently play this setup on the MacBook while on battery power.

The VSTi with the drum kit is by far the most complex of them though. According to Reaper's Performance meter, EZDrummer runs at 5.5%, while other tracks are much less, at 0.5-1.5%. (Don't know if that is relative to 100% or the 400% the system uses, but the interesting bit is the relative delta). And my EZDrummer was downloaded years ago, so it might even be an "old" plugin, so something more modern like a recent OmniSphere might end up eating a lot more.

The point is really, if you're sticking to plain audio then any ol' CPU will do. Use VSTi, and you're going to start pushing things.

Part of the reason I got the Kronos, was to get to this kind of setup though. I wanted the Kronos with its massive capabilities and no-latency audio so I would have a solid synth, and then the DAW / computer could just be audio recording.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Gunnar"]
19naia wrote:
And your 100 tracks together, running smooth on a previous Macbook model with less power?


The point is really, if you're sticking to plain audio then any ol' CPU will do. Use VSTi, and you're going to start pushing things.

Part of the reason I got the Kronos, was to get to this kind of setup though. I wanted the Kronos with its massive capabilities and no-latency audio so I would have a solid synth, and then the DAW / computer could just be audio recording.


Ok. I see. That is still a lot of tracks -and considering i also plan to use DAW and VSTi in tandem with kronos. Layering sounds for Combi-like performances.
So i would likely still stack my usual 4-5 program combi in Kronos and then stack 5-10 more external programs in Mainstage, using sounds from both Logic and from two of Spectrasonics synths.
And then Audio tracks for me are a rarity. I work more with little audio snips which have more flexible application when made into samples and run via midi controls and notes.
Will be good to have more audio track capabilities for the chance i evolve my work style into using more audio tracks.
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BobTheDog
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no software optimisation needed, how can you optimise for a 6 core when your code already runs on machines with many more cores?

I still can only see one report of CPU issues due to throttling, and loads of other people linking to this report.

As the great Trump would say "Fake News"

Another viewpoint: https://www.geekbench.com/blog/2018/07/macbook-pro-performance-july-2018/
https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks/
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19naia
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobTheDog wrote:
There is no software optimisation needed, how can you optimise for a 6 core when your code already runs on machines with many more cores?

I still can only see one report of CPU issues due to throttling, and loads of other people linking to this report.

As the great Trump would say "Fake News"

Another viewpoint: https://www.geekbench.com/blog/2018/07/macbook-pro-performance-july-2018/
https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks/


Maybe the Optimization is not for core count, but for the all new, first time incorporated, i9 processor.
What other Apple devices have incorporated i9 processors?
Mention was made about the same optimization issues related to a previous processor upgrade, maybe back when i7 was first introduced to Apple laptops.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/8th-gen-core-i9-mobile-brief.html

I found the write-up from Intel’s website. What they have to say about their i9 CPU product.
And sure enough, it sounds like it to me, they have mentioned that its power is limited to processor temperatures which depends on the loads.
So it thermal throttles to keep from over load.
They literally make remarks about that.

Also the demonstrations of thermal throttling i have seen, have shown i9 devices to be slower only in a particular area that is normally where CPUs bog down under load. All other areas, i9 is faster.

Seems to me, consistent with remarks made by Intel on their product description.
Intel.com is as direct a source as one can draw from about the i9 processor.
Here is a copy and paste excerpt from the Intel® Core™ i9 mobile processor brief ›
~~~~~~~~
“Ultimate Mobile Platform Performance
The newest 8th Generation Intel® Core™ processors redefine enthusiast mobile PC performance now with up to six cores and 12 MB of cache memory for more processing power—that’s two more cores than the previous Generation Intel® Core™ processor family—Intel® Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 and new Intel® Thermal Velocity Boost (Intel® TVB) to opportunistically and automatically increase core frequency whenever processor temperature and turbo budget allows.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The last sentence says:
“thermal velocity boost to opportunistically and automatically increase core frequency whenever processor temperature allows”.

Sound like just what would explain the thermal throttling situation going on in isolated instances of heavy loading tasks.
I am going to wait another spell before i jump on an i9 device. Just to see if apple comes up with fixes and improvements.

As the greater amount of trump’s fake news claims turn out to be, it is all based on things he hasn’t looked well enough into to really know whats going on. Or maybe calling it all fake -to have his lies become the only thing acceptable as truth.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobTheDog wrote:


As the great Trump would say "Fake News"

/


go to google

type in the word ' idiot '

go to images

Wink
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BobTheDog
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

19naia wrote:
BobTheDog wrote:
There is no software optimisation needed, how can you optimise for a 6 core when your code already runs on machines with many more cores?

I still can only see one report of CPU issues due to throttling, and loads of other people linking to this report.

As the great Trump would say "Fake News"

Another viewpoint: https://www.geekbench.com/blog/2018/07/macbook-pro-performance-july-2018/
https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks/


Maybe the Optimization is not for core count, but for the all new, first time incorporated, i9 processor.
What other Apple devices have incorporated i9 processors?
Mention was made about the same optimization issues related to a previous processor upgrade, maybe back when i7 was first introduced to Apple laptops.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/8th-gen-core-i9-mobile-brief.html

I found the write-up from Intel’s website. What they have to say about their i9 CPU product.
And sure enough, it sounds like it to me, they have mentioned that its power is limited to processor temperatures which depends on the loads.
So it thermal throttles to keep from over load.
They literally make remarks about that.

Also the demonstrations of thermal throttling i have seen, have shown i9 devices to be slower only in a particular area that is normally where CPUs bog down under load. All other areas, i9 is faster.

Seems to me, consistent with remarks made by Intel on their product description.
Intel.com is as direct a source as one can draw from about the i9 processor.
Here is a copy and paste excerpt from the Intel® Core™ i9 mobile processor brief ›
~~~~~~~~
“Ultimate Mobile Platform Performance
The newest 8th Generation Intel® Core™ processors redefine enthusiast mobile PC performance now with up to six cores and 12 MB of cache memory for more processing power—that’s two more cores than the previous Generation Intel® Core™ processor family—Intel® Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 and new Intel® Thermal Velocity Boost (Intel® TVB) to opportunistically and automatically increase core frequency whenever processor temperature and turbo budget allows.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The last sentence says:
“thermal velocity boost to opportunistically and automatically increase core frequency whenever processor temperature allows”.

Sound like just what would explain the thermal throttling situation going on in isolated instances of heavy loading tasks.
I am going to wait another spell before i jump on an i9 device. Just to see if apple comes up with fixes and improvements.

As the greater amount of trump’s fake news claims turn out to be, it is all based on things he hasn’t looked well enough into to really know whats going on. Or maybe calling it all fake -to have his lies become the only thing acceptable as truth.


All modern processors throttle, they are designed like that. The newer I7s and i9s use less wattage than their predecessors they should heat throttle less as they are not getting as hot.

All I am saying is that all this internet fuss is based on one machine, that may well be faulty.

Lets look at the alternatives.

1. Apple spend million of dollars developing the next range of the MacBook Pro that is slower than the last range and hope no one notices.

2. The guy on the internet has a machine that is faulty.
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billysynth1
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to Google and typed in 'idiot'.

I got Deep State.

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19naia
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="BobTheDog"][quote="19naia"]
BobTheDog wrote:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/processors/core/8th-gen-core-i9-mobile-brief.html

“thermal velocity boost to opportunistically and automatically increase core frequency whenever processor temperature allows”.

1. Apple spend million of dollars developing the next range of the MacBook Pro that is slower than the last range and hope no one notices.

2. The guy on the internet has a machine that is faulty.



I did look at the link you posted where it talked about faults in the machine or the machine being too new and still involved in the icloud/itunes download process in the background, which can take lots of processing power and days to complete, after the device is set up for the new owner’s use.
That is definitley a consideration i didn’t make before. Makes sense that it would interfere in the background and make any tests inaccurately fault the i9.
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