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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10399
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 Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:35 am Post subject: |
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......think I might just play mine..... 
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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musiccankill
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 884
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| karmathanever wrote: | | ......think I might just play mine..... |
Couldn't agree more!!
It is ok about the technical info and analysis but it is a musical instrument after all and it is one of the best in the market!It deserves to get used for what it has been made for! |
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1843
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: OMAP / ARM processing dynamically - sometimes overloading |
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| musiccankill wrote: | | .. am not here to argue with anybody ... |
When it comes to assert that it was noticed, that CPU/DSP was overloading if extensive using the mp3 recording and vocal harmonizer - it really seem not to be necessary here to argue with anybody, but selective comparisons with the characteristics and efficiency of previous models are legitimate, even if you are otherwise satisfied with a new instrument.
If somebody want to switch from the Pa3x to the Pa1000 after careful consideration, he carefully should check whether the quality and the possibilities of the VH processor (features Compressor, Gate) are sufficient, because TC-Voice Processor Technology means neither the Pa900 nor the Pa1000 (also not with Pa4x), that one must find there a VP with the usual quality of the Pa3x.
This can be explained by the two DSP chips used in the Pa3x (Korg EDS chip and sep second DSP chip from Texas Instruments), which offer more headroom for DSP processes (harmonies, overall performance). On the boards of the new models work processor chips with an architecture (OMAP / ARM) as in tablets and mobile phones. All sampling Rec & Playback and voice harmonization processes are processed dynamically; whereas the Pa3x has its separate DSP.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: OMAP / ARM processing dynamically - sometimes overloadin |
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| siebenhirter wrote: | | musiccankill wrote: | | .. am not here to argue with anybody ... |
When it comes to assert that it was noticed, that CPU/DSP was overloading if extensive using the mp3 recording and vocal harmonizer - it really seem not to be necessary here to argue with anybody, but selective comparisons with the characteristics and efficiency of previous models are legitimate, even if you are otherwise satisfied with a new instrument.
If somebody want to switch from the Pa3x to the Pa1000 after careful consideration, he carefully should check whether the quality and the possibilities of the VH processor (features Compressor, Gate) are sufficient, because TC-Voice Processor Technology means neither the Pa900 nor the Pa1000 (also not with Pa4x), that one must find there a VP with the usual quality of the Pa3x.
This can be explained by the two DSP chips used in the Pa3x (Korg EDS chip and sep second DSP chip from Texas Instruments), which offer more headroom for DSP processes (harmonies, overall performance). On the boards of the new models work processor chips with an architecture (OMAP / ARM) as in tablets and mobile phones. All sampling Rec & Playback and voice harmonization processes are processed dynamically; whereas the Pa3x has its separate DSP. |
The question in this post is very simple how is the quality on Pa4X using its full features (TC-Helicon + mp3 recorder the only way to export material in digital format) because the mainboard seems to be the same in hardware specs as Pa3XLe, Pa900 and Pa600.
Nobody answered that because searching on youtube there is nothing published about flagship Pa4X regarding mp3 recordings and the vocal harmonizer sound quality. I can confirm that the only model using a true TC-Helicon DSP architecture is the older Pa3X model.
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3595
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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So many irrelevant posts & speculations for things that you're not aware about architecture of used CPU !
Only musicankill tried to explain you the real order of things and was not treated as he should ...
So ... do not waste your time on exploring Pa4X/1000 MP3 format , it's the same low bit rate format , it can't carry
audio information of superior DAC of 24 bit that Pa4X has (compared to old 16 bit DAC of Pa3X/Pa900/Le)
and all advanced users do not use it at all.
The question is similar in asking which PC records better in mp3 128 VBR format , an Intel dual core or a i7-8000 !
Therefore use your PC/Mac & DAW using Pa4X Audio Outputs for your recordings , it's crystal clear.
The only thing I really miss in Pa4X is the discontinued "Digital output" of Pa3X that would be very usefull for a 24bit DAC ...
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | So many irrelevant posts & speculations for things that you're not aware about architecture of used CPU !
Only musicankill tried to explain you the real order of things and was not treated as he should ...
So ... do not waste your time on exploring Pa4X/1000 MP3 format , it's the same low bit rate format , it can't carry
audio information of superior DAC of 24 bit that Pa4X has (compared to old 16 bit DAC of Pa3X/Pa900/Le)
and all advanced users do not use it at all.
The question is similar in asking which PC records better in mp3 128 VBR format , an Intel dual core or a i7-8000 !
Therefore use your PC/Mac & DAW using Pa4X Audio Outputs for your recordings , its crystal clear.
The only thing I really miss in Pa4X is the discontinued "Digital output" of Pa3X that would be very useful for a 24bit DAC ... |
Today all models use 24 bit DAC converters but dont means that output is at 24 bits resolution. Using a 16 bits DAC is enough for CD quality the only advantage increasing DAC output conversion to 20 or 24 bit is to make more easy the interpolation (digital mixing) of samples and audio streams on a wider DSP bus to avoid the loose of headroom on DAC output resolution.
I´m not expert about DSPs architectures but what I can confirm is the weak quality of Pa3XLe on recordings to USB device caused by the overloading on OMAP CPU/DSP. Same mainboard is installed on Pa4X, Pa900 and Pa600 so the question about this post is to know if quality is degraded on Pa4X digital mp3 recordings using at the same time the harmonizer.
Summarizing this means that Pa4X can't export audio in digital format properly because audio quality is degraded by OMAP CPU/DSP overloading when the voice harmonizer and built in mp3 recording function is in use the only way to export in digital format. The mp3 compression format is not poor in quality because quality depends of enough processing power of CPU and DSP. On every PC compressing audio to mp3 format don´t degrades quality using a high bit rate. Unfortunately the issue on Pa4X, Pa3XLe and Pa900 is the weak OMAP CPU for processing all the tasks.
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Last edited by alfredokiwi on Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3595
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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You keep on doing the same mistake as you did with me before 5-6 years , you try to make lectures to experts and you
don't have the required knowledge to do that so let us a brake ...
You don't have a clue of how DM37xx Digital Media Processor series works and your googling "gum" about "OMAP DSP"
would not save your missing knowledge !
If you want to make a question that's fine , but do not make conclusions with keyboards you don't own , especially in deep
technical level , like CPU architecture !
Some tips FYI :
- A CPU engineer (like me) , can easily find out from Texas Instrument datasheet http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dm3725.pdf
why in hardware level DSP will never be overloaded with 3 Pa4X in full tasks together ...
Programming , USB 2 as communication port and even the non supporting of WAV/AIFF files in PaSeries is not CPU fault ...
- PaSeries low resolution Mp3 format can not even support 14 bit DAC , so 24 bit DAC is out of question for using this format ...
use external recorder !
- Pa4X/700/1000 have a superior sound quality of all previous models in any hardware & software level under any task , it's self
proved by side by side comparison under same samples and the reason of missing digital outputs is a clear matter of lowering cost ...
Just for the story
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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mstodola
Senior Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 347
Location: Bedford, Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:34 am Post subject: |
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All things are finite. I was playing an old keyboard today and I was awed by how far the quality of sound has improved. I wish I could have 512 polyphony and a full blown TC Helicon Extreme installed and 40 GB user sample memory, but I don't think it's going to happen. Everybody's interface has it's strengths and we wish we could pick what we want but like Mick Jager said, "You can't always get what you want". 
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Pa4x, Oasys 76, K2000, PC3K7, Montage 8, Pa5x |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10399
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| mstodola wrote: | | we wish we could pick what we want but like Mick Jager said, "You can't always get what you want". ) |
+1
Well not true really because we can always get what we want - just that no-one can afford it!!!!
P
_________________
PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| AntonySharmman wrote: | You keep on doing the same mistake as you did with me before 5-6 years , you try to make lectures to experts and you
don't have the required knowledge to do that so let us a brake ...
You don't have a clue of how DM37xx Digital Media Processor series works and your googling "gum" about "OMAP DSP"
would not save your missing knowledge !
If you want to make a question that's fine , but do not make conclusions with keyboards you don't own , especially in deep
technical level , like CPU architecture !
Some tips FYI :
- A CPU engineer (like me) , can easily find out from Texas Instrument datasheet http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dm3725.pdf
why in hardware level DSP will never be overloaded with 3 Pa4X in full tasks together ...
Programming , USB 2 as communication port and even the non supporting of WAV/AIFF files in PaSeries is not CPU fault ...
- PaSeries low resolution Mp3 format can not even support 14 bit DAC , so 24 bit DAC is out of question for using this format ...
use external recorder !
- Pa4X/700/1000 have a superior sound quality of all previous models in any hardware & software level under any task , it's self
proved by side by side comparison under same samples and the reason of missing digital outputs is a clear matter of lowering cost ...
Just for the story |
The Pa3XLe a professional 76 keys arranger from sep 2014 that cost 2500 dollars US price use the same mainboard as the Pa4X, Pa900 and Pa600. Unfortunately the built-in mp3 feature on Pa3XLe is a total crap. I can confirm that a cheap Pentium 100 Mhz CPU encodes mp3 files much better as Pa3XLe. Such issue is caused by the overloading on the OMAP CPU/DSP processor a CPU technology found on today tablets and smartphones. I noticed such issues on Pa3XLe after 2 months of use. Researching the DM3730, DM3725 datasheets provided by Antony seems that the OMAP processor on Pa arrangers series are single core ARM CPUs with integrated C64 DSP. Today tablets using four cores ARM processors are a lot more powerful as Pa4X single core ARM we can´t discuss that.
Only I want to know users opinions about the quality on flagship model Pa4X using the mp3 recording and voice harmonizing feature. It seems to have such issues because use same mainboard as Pa3XLe, Pa900 and Pa600 with a single core ARM processor/DSP. At the moment nobody answered that...
FYI: The TC-Helicon Voicelive touch use a dual core DSP processor and separate ARM CPU. I can confirm that because I buy a used non working Voicelive touch for only 100 dollars and fortunately was able to repair it. The idea is to use the Voicelive touch with the Pa3XLe as external voice effects processors and harmonizer.
Fortunately I pay only 1500 dollars new for the Pa3XLe single core ARM cpu/dsp because there was a summer sales discount of 1000 dollars.
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Please check my Facebook page and blog at
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www.alfredoblogspage.blogspot.com.ar |
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the_boss81
Full Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 126
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I had some TC Helicon products like Voice Works, VL2, VL Touch, VL Rack, H1, but currently I use the Helicon in Pa4X and I don't think it is worse than the external devices. Moreover, it is much more convenient, since you do not need a device and cabling separately...
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Sorry 4 my English - I only speak Polish & German & really like my Pa5X |
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Eduardo_Arg
Senior Member
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 269
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Friends:
In some term i must agree with Antony.-
I think that questioning some features of PA4x, like MP3 recording, it's a silly thing.-
The reason because MP3 recording features was introduce, is just to get a sample of your composition.- PA keyborads are not high quality recorders (also Kronos).- If what anybody wants is to perform a high quality MP3 (i prefer WAV), you must get it on external devices.- PC provides that function, and dedicated software do it charm (for example Adobe Audition).- If you want portable and easy to use MP3/WAV recorders, go for a Zoom R16.-
Pretending any kyb provides a decent and unlimited MP3 recording goes crosshand with kyb nature: its an instrument dedicate to produce music, its not a professional recorder.-
In my case i use Adobe Audition for MP3/WAV recording, a for a pure analogic take, till today i use for my real to real Technics RS-1700.- In both cases you can get decent record sesions.-
I have not the revelated word.- This is just an opinion.-
With regards.
Eduardo
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Korg Kronos 2 88 - Korg PA4x 76 - Roland Fantom 08 - Korg N1R Sound Module - Korg 05RW Sound Module - Roland UM550 Edirol Midi Patchbay Amp pair SWR California Blonde II |
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alfredokiwi
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Eduardo_Arg wrote: | Hi Friends:
In some term i must agree with Antony.-
I think that questioning some features of PA4x, like MP3 recording, it's a silly thing.-
The reason because MP3 recording features was introduce, is just to get a sample of your composition.- PA keyborads are not high quality recorders (also Kronos).- If what anybody wants is to perform a high quality MP3 (i prefer WAV), you must get it on external devices.- PC provides that function, and dedicated software do it charm (for example Adobe Audition).- If you want portable and easy to use MP3/WAV recorders, go for a Zoom R16.-
Pretending any kyb provides a decent and unlimited MP3 recording goes crosshand with kyb nature: its an instrument dedicate to produce music, its not a professional recorder.-
In my case i use Adobe Audition for MP3/WAV recording, a for a pure analogic take, till today i use for my real to real Technics RS-1700.- In both cases you can get decent record sesions.-
I have not the revelated word.- This is just an opinion.-
With regards.
Eduardo |
Today a computer running VSTs seems to be the best option to reach superior quality for recordings the problem is the lack of applications for arranging songs in real time the reason why I buy the Pa3XLe.
At 1500 dollars for the Pa3XLe (1000 rebate) was convenient despite the issues I´m happy with the Pa3XLe.
The Pa4X flagship model on Korg arrangers costs 4000 dollars USA price. My question here came because as owner of the middle priced Pa3XLe arranger and issues exposed the OMAP CPU/DSP mainboard on all models from entry level Pa600 to flagship model Pa4X is the same DM3725 single core ARM processor, nothing changes so regarding sound quality issues between models would be the same.
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Please check my Facebook page and blog at
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www.alfredoblogspage.blogspot.com.ar
Last edited by alfredokiwi on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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musiccankill
Platinum Member
Joined: 30 May 2010
Posts: 884
Location: Greece
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I will write it one more time...
The DSP used ISN'T responsible for the sound quality a device produces (call it keyboard, efx rack , efx pedal , whatever with a dsp inside)...
The code the DSP is running makes the difference..
Also all the keyboards with linux from korg do not have the DM3725 through the entire series...They all have the DM3xxx series but not the exact same part with the exact same capabilities..Also PC is not the way to go i believe...
VST's are not of that high quality..Test a UAD interface for the pc which is external DSP processor/processors for the pc and you will see why pc is too underpowered to run actually good plugins....Floating point calculations are taking way too much time on a desktop/laptop cpu.That is what DSPs are made for... |
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AntonySharmman
Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 3595
Location: Hellas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I will change your nickname to PatienceCanKill ... 
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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