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Your Practical use of Karma
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Falcon2e
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, first let me say, Karma is great! But, I have it turned off. Being part of a cover band, it just isnít a useful tool for me. Itís nice to know itís available though.
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drama1
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
drama1 wrote:
I find Karma invaluable, but I use it in a rather unorthodox way. I use it strictly to change between programs or combinations, including splits and layers, all without any cutoff of sound. I also find it much easier to use the Karma scene buttons to change sounds rather than the touchscreen.


thats a cool idea

I will take a button over a few pecks on the LCD

Is your approach to help out on gigs ? Live performance ?


It makes live performance very easy and very possible to use only one board, the Kronos obviously.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drama1 wrote:
GregC wrote:
drama1 wrote:
I find Karma invaluable, but I use it in a rather unorthodox way. I use it strictly to change between programs or combinations, including splits and layers, all without any cutoff of sound. I also find it much easier to use the Karma scene buttons to change sounds rather than the touchscreen.


thats a cool idea

I will take a button over a few pecks on the LCD

Is your approach to help out on gigs ? Live performance ?


It makes live performance very easy and very possible to use only one board, the Kronos obviously.


that qualifies as a practical use. I recall you mentioned this before, Good work using it.
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AntonySharmman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falcon2e wrote:
Being part of a cover band, it just isnít a useful tool for me. Itís nice to know itís available though.

Karma module at first sight (especially in Kronos preset factory sound design) looks like a arpeggiator toy for a skilled Musician
but if you deeply explore it you'll find out that it has the most direct access in Kronos engines that the user has not via controllers.
Karma is able to add functions in Sound development & programming that will enhance 3 times Kronos functionality with missing
features on Kronos oscillators controllers , switching OSC and Programs without using Kronos engines poor design of main AMS
sending routing with just muting timbres and creating sonic glitches and artifacts using controllers !

I use DAWs since the day of their birth therefore Kronos SEQ, arpeggiators & drumkits patterns look like a children play yard for
my requirements (always IMO)
But Kronos COMBIs features plus Karma deep automation utilities make the ultimate platform to create unique and powerful performance
combination of instruments groups with automation & scenes that turn Kronos to a superior real time performance workstation ...

So do not underestimate this superb tool !
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EJ2
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But Kronos COMBIs features plus Karma deep automation utilities make the ultimate platform to create unique and powerful performance
combination of instruments groups with automation & scenes that turn Kronos to a superior real time performance workstation ...

So do not underestimate this superb tool !


Well put! Cool
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NETWORK1
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falcon2e wrote:
Okay, first let me say, Karma is great!
But, I have it turned off. Being part of a cover band, it just isnít a useful tool for me. Itís nice to know itís available though.

--------------

Its not surprising you dont hear it used in many mainstream commercial trax,
as approx 80 % of users, play around with it,and then leave it.

Its anti-methodical & Counter-intuitive, and theres so many faster and easier programs out there now , since the incredible acceleration in Technology.
Time is Money
if korg are gonna launch a NEW synth, there gonna have to revamp the Karma concept, because as it stands, its Dated.


1.VIDEO POP : https://vimeo.com/album/5005360
2.VIDEO POP : https://vimeo.com/album/4798784

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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Your Practical use of Karma Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
I like Karma. Its fun to experiment, jam around , create some new ideas, etc.

I consider that casual use. Nothing wrong with having fun.

Are you taking your knowledge and use of Karma further ?

Practical to me, is to help song writing or band performance.
Or maybe some type of training ? Or some sound development for commercial purpose ?


Great topic, Greg! I'm roughly 6 months in with the Kronos, and despite the huge amount of power that's contained within Karma, I've found it to be kind of a tough thing to put to practical use. The combis that have 4-part Karma are fun to play with and discover it's capabilities. But at the end of the day, I feel like I'm just playing a variant of a song that someone else wrote when I use them. I suppose if you vary enough things (tempo, sounds used, GEs, RTC params, effects, etc.) you could consider the combis a starting point and transform them into something completely different. And I have played around with that concept, although a lot of times I prefer to just start from a greenfield when I compose.

One thing that I think makes it a bit tough to put into practical use is the inability to define the core note/rhythm patterns that are used. There's certainly tons of GEs pre-loaded to choose from, but it's a little tough to know which one is the closest match for what you want, and then how to tweak the gap. I know you can import original patterns with the KK software by importing a MIDI file, but I haven't quite knocked myself off that fence yet. I've watched bits and pieces of Charles Ferraro's (excellent) KK series, examined the KK manual, and I still find myself wondering what can only be done with the software vs. on the Kronos directly (so far the MIDI import is the only thing I've identified, though I'm sure there must be more).

It would be nice if you could replace a GE's patterns directly on the Kronos by just grabbing a measure or two out of the song sequencer. I've been spending a lot of time with different Eurorack sequencers, and so I draw a comparison between Karma and those. Those sequencers allow you to define a pattern, and then manipulate it in many ways to come up with something new, or variations on it. I think Karma is actually much more sophisticated than most of those sequencers in the ways it lets you manipulate a pattern, but you have to choose one of Korg/Karma's predefined "patterns" - or buy and learn the software. As I understand it with the software, creating a pattern involves recording a MIDI file, importing it, then "fixing" any problems with it. I actually bought the Kronos to reduce the computer's role in my workflow, so I'm not sure how inspiring that process sounds. Probably why I'm still lingering on the fence.

At any rate, I'd love to get more tips on how to put karma to practical use. Some of Qui Robinez's videos have been really fantastic on this, as well as the handful that Karma Labs put out. I'm sure Charles Ferraro's series will be great if I decide to buy the KK software. With or without the software, it seems like there's a lot of untapped potential there for me.
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danmusician
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to use KARMA when I'm leading praise and worship. It gives me flexibility that I don't have with pre-recorded backing tracks. I have my foot switch set to LOCK. Using LOCK/UNLOCK and changing modules during a song, KARMA can work something like an arranger keyboard. I have some songs that I composed and recorded with KARMA.


This song was recorded with KARMA from my M3 (which I no longer own):

http://sdgministry.com/NewAlbum/No%20Sweeter%20Sound.mp3


This song was recorded with KARMA from my M3. I layered over it with the Piano & Constant Voices Combi from the Kronos.

http://sdgministry.com/NewAlbum/Sing%20to%20the%20Lord.mp3


This song is completely performed with KARMA using the California Phase Shifter combi.

http://sdgministry.com/NewAlbum/Joy%20Peace%20Love.mp3
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: Your Practical use of Karma Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
I like Karma. Its fun to experiment, jam around , create some new ideas, etc.

I consider that casual use. Nothing wrong with having fun.

Are you taking your knowledge and use of Karma further ?

Practical to me, is to help song writing or band performance.
Or maybe some type of training ? Or some sound development for commercial purpose ?


Great topic, Greg! I'm roughly 6 months in with the Kronos, and despite the huge amount of power that's contained within Karma, I've found it to be kind of a tough thing to put to practical use. The combis that have 4-part Karma are fun to play with and discover it's capabilities. But at the end of the day, I feel like I'm just playing a variant of a song that someone else wrote when I use them. I suppose if you vary enough things (tempo, sounds used, GEs, RTC params, effects, etc.) you could consider the combis a starting point and transform them into something completely different. And I have played around with that concept, although a lot of times I prefer to just start from a greenfield when I compose.

One thing that I think makes it a bit tough to put into practical use is the inability to define the core note/rhythm patterns that are used. There's certainly tons of GEs pre-loaded to choose from, but it's a little tough to know which one is the closest match for what you want, and then how to tweak the gap. I know you can import original patterns with the KK software by importing a MIDI file, but I haven't quite knocked myself off that fence yet. I've watched bits and pieces of Charles Ferraro's (excellent) KK series, examined the KK manual, and I still find myself wondering what can only be done with the software vs. on the Kronos directly (so far the MIDI import is the only thing I've identified, though I'm sure there must be more).

It would be nice if you could replace a GE's patterns directly on the Kronos by just grabbing a measure or two out of the song sequencer. I've been spending a lot of time with different Eurorack sequencers, and so I draw a comparison between Karma and those. Those sequencers allow you to define a pattern, and then manipulate it in many ways to come up with something new, or variations on it. I think Karma is actually much more sophisticated than most of those sequencers in the ways it lets you manipulate a pattern, but you have to choose one of Korg/Karma's predefined "patterns" - or buy and learn the software. As I understand it with the software, creating a pattern involves recording a MIDI file, importing it, then "fixing" any problems with it. I actually bought the Kronos to reduce the computer's role in my workflow, so I'm not sure how inspiring that process sounds. Probably why I'm still lingering on the fence.

At any rate, I'd love to get more tips on how to put karma to practical use. Some of Qui Robinez's videos have been really fantastic on this, as well as the handful that Karma Labs put out. I'm sure Charles Ferraro's series will be great if I decide to buy the KK software. With or without the software, it seems like there's a lot of untapped potential there for me.


Good to see you ! Thoughtful post. Fast 6 months. That is like 20 minutes in Kronos time.

I agree, I donít work w/Combis much, but it was a task to weed out or mute specific Karma patterns.

The Karma pick list is huge- 2200 patterns I recall. I find difficulty in organizing them. Plus
I substitute guitar instead of piano for typical ARPís. Experimentation is endless.

And really, I take simple over complex any day. I work better with less vs more. I think many have to watch time suckage.
. I admit- I am not the deep and thorough learning type.

For my song writing, I mostly start in Program mode, and build build build.

My opinion is that Karma is intensely creative and useful. But the potential has not been properly exploited.

Its been with us since 2001 ! Sure, it evolved with Korg
Workstations. I still see it as a real music game changer . But who can
realistically make that happen ?
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NETWORK1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K.O.R.G. probably browse these forums, for FEEDBACK
so its worth mentioning our Experiences,
which is better than pretending everything is Great .
Thats PROGRESS




1.VIDEO POP : https://vimeo.com/album/5005360
2.VIDEO POP : https://vimeo.com/album/4798784

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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its fun we are sharing what we do with Karma.

In this original, at the 10 second (:10) mark, you will hear a squeaky
synth part. The pattern plays for about 10 seconds.

Then at :40. the same Karma type synth part reappears. Here, I change from 1 scene to another scene. Basically the synth is going crazy
on the groove for 20 seconds:


It Feels 2Good:

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/it-feels-2-goodwav

Let me know what you think Smile
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Its fun we are sharing what we do with Karma.

In this original, at the 10 second (:10) mark, you will hear a squeaky
synth part. The pattern plays for about 10 seconds.

Then at :40. the same Karma type synth part reappears. Here, I change from 1 scene to another scene. Basically the synth is going crazy
on the groove for 20 seconds:


It Feels 2Good:

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/it-feels-2-goodwav

Let me know what you think Smile


Great track! I enjoyed it a lot. And that is a nice example of something that Karma can do easily that would otherwise be very difficult, I think.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stumbled across these videos that Stephen Kay did at Music Player Expo for the Oasys back in 2005. There are 7 or so parts, YouTube should link to the next ones from the first.

I thought it was a really good demonstration of the breadth of things you can do with Karma. Even though these videos are older and for the Oasys, they seem to still be relevant for the Kronos today. Worth a watch if you haven't seen them IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJK18XWKo0
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
Its fun we are sharing what we do with Karma.

In this original, at the 10 second (:10) mark, you will hear a squeaky
synth part. The pattern plays for about 10 seconds.

Then at :40. the same Karma type synth part reappears. Here, I change from 1 scene to another scene. Basically the synth is going crazy
on the groove for 20 seconds:


It Feels 2Good:

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/it-feels-2-goodwav

Let me know what you think Smile


Great track! I enjoyed it a lot. And that is a nice example of something that Karma can do easily that would otherwise be very difficult, I think.


Thanks ! You have a good ear- Karma made that squeaky synth part happen.

On " Going Places" I rely on Karma to play synth riffs, piano Arps, difficult drum/bass parts (1:02 - 2:57)

https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/going-places

My drummer from our band's college days, ate up the drum pattern
+ fills on ' Going Places". He told me is still trying to dope it out Wink
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some reason I thought I'd replied here saying that I enjoyed "It Feels 2Good" but I guess I didn't. So nice work! Smile

From my point of view, it seems like this topic is worth continuing to explore. I feel like there are just some things that I'm missing about KARMA that would make a light bulb go off and make big difference in my "practical" use of it, similar to how SeedyLee's sequencer tips post did for me with the K's sequencer.

So, none of what follows is bashing on KARMA because I think it's really cool, and one of the things that makes the Kronos special. But they are things that from a newer user's perspective seem like an obstacle to "practicality."

There are, like 2000 factory KARMA presets. I feel like 1 or 5 of them contain something that would spice up my song and fit it well. But which 1 or 5 of those 2,000, I don't know. I can make some educated guesses from the category and name, but it's kind of a time consuming process to audition them and adjust the parameters to see if they're a good fit.

Most of the RTC models for melodic style GEs have like 4 of the 16 controls dedicated to pitch bend effects. The pitch bending stuff is really cool. Some of it would be very difficult or impossible to play. But for me, it's probably not something I want to use on 95% or even 10% of my songs. It's probably a little too dramatic and would get cliche if I used it all the time. But yet none of the preset melodic RTC models have a control for the rate at which notes are generated (e.g. 1/4 note, 16th note, etc.). From watching Qui Robinez's videos, I think at least some of the GEs have a parameter that controls that in the first "visible" 32 params, so it can be mapped to a hardware slider. But it's not a default control. To me that would seem more "practical" than pitch bend controls on all of them. I guess I could go through and remap a bunch and save them that way as user presets...

So these are the types of things that leave me scratching my head a bit and keep me from plugging in a KARMA GE for immediate practical use. I guess maybe I just need more time with it, but any tips appreciated!
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