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PA4x - breakage on fills and variations

 
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oliv73
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Location: france

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:47 pm    Post subject: PA4x - breakage on fills and variations Reply with quote

Hi

I (still) don't own a PA 4x. While watching videos I noticed some problems when user goes from a variation to another (or to a Fill in)

Here an example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNYpN-Ywhng

at 0:16 : unexpected break
at 3:33 : break + volume issue

It seems there is sometimes some blanks on upper notes while changing variation & keyboards set.

Do all these problems come from player or from PA4x ?
How to avoid them ?

Oliv
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Oliv

To answer your question (I hope)

....at both video locations he is selecting the fill at an inappropriate part of the measure and at the 3:33 the player has simply selected a fill that is much "busier" than the variation he is playing and also, again selects it at an odd point within a measure - so, yes, it's the player 100% - this is not a good demonstration.

The problem you are hearing would apply to any arranger - playing a gentle variation and them pressing a busy heavier FILL at an odd point within the measure.

Hope this helps

Pete Very Happy

EDITED:- A further and more detailed look at the youtube video confirms that the player really is not experienced with the PA4X which is a shame.
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oliv73
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete

Thanks for your reply
So this video presents how PA4x sounds the first time we use it
And a Jürgen Sartorius videos presents how PA4x sounds after 10 years training


Very Happy Very Happy
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Sam CA
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this is an official product demo, but in general Korg is notorious for doing sloppy live demos for their arranger products. Believe it or not, this one is actually pretty good compared to what we've seen before. I've seen worse....a lot worse!
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oliv73
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great demo of PA4x :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daJJBlWQn1c

But I don't know if it's all real or if he used midifiles (It seems all realtime but a lot of keyboard demos are made with midifiles even if they say the opposite)
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't watched that one for a while but reasonably certain it is genuine.

Very Happy
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hans1966
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That demonstration was good, but personally I like this is more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lux9QiBHaXs
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alfredokiwi
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such issues also happens on Pa500, Pa50 and Microarranger (Pa50) it seems to share the programming code related to the arranging part (style sequencer). What I can tell you is the case of Pa3XLe it seems to work very well switching arranging parts being very precise noticing a big improvement from previous models.
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oliv73
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that they are many videos showing these breakages

https://youtu.be/hGm98mGvrug

From 4:50 to 5:10 for example. It sounds not natural
Probably user problem too
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oliv73
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried PA4x myself.
It appears these breakages are not coming only from the player.
It's about the same in reality.
I don't know exactly if it comes from the factory styles or from PA4x OS
I assume volume problems can be resolve in style editing.
Is there settings that can improve style variation transitions (someone wrote about cue mode)?
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QuiRobinez
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oliv73 wrote:
I tried PA4x myself.
It appears these breakages are not coming only from the player.
It's about the same in reality.
I don't know exactly if it comes from the factory styles or from PA4x OS
I assume volume problems can be resolve in style editing.
Is there settings that can improve style variation transitions (someone wrote about cue mode)?


it's a matter of practice. it depends on where you add the fill or transition in the beat. If you switch on the first measure of the latest beat then you will never notice those breakages.

Theoretically my guess is that it's probably because a fill has a specific length, if you activate it on a measure where the fill doesn't really make sense it will sound as a breackage because the fill isn't played entirely.

so lets say you have a four measure beat,
the fill is 2 measures
if you activate the next scene (or press the fill button) on the first measure then you won't notice any breakage, because the fill can be played entirely.
If you activate it on the third measure it will sound wrong, because the fill is played for only one measure which sounds odd.

If you play for a couple of days you will probably do it right automatically.
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oliv73
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe
I have no experiences on korg arrangers (only synths)
I played Yamaha , Roland, Ketron, GEM arrangers and never experienced this. That 's why I was surprised on demos and in real test.
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Fill-In - Cue-Mode Reply with quote

oliv73 wrote:
.. Maybe I have no experiences on korg arrangers (only synths) ... That 's why I was surprised on demos and in real test.


Seems to be none of users here really know, how Fill-In of Pa-Keyboards are made - maybe also have no experiences on Korg arrangers and its excellent StylePlay features !!
*
It always has been Fill-ins with Pa-Keyboards are much more accurate to trigger than in Arrangkeyboards of other brands.

If users do not know the "Cue Mode" for Style elements, they also never will use Fill-In as necessary
- you can decide how a Variation or Fill Style Element will enter after having been selected
-if you do not know what your Fill-In-Parameters individually are set - maybe each Fill-In can become a disaster.

In case Fill-In is used according to the cue-mode set for a Fill-In (you do so in recording styles) you can decide yourself exactly when the fill-in should be triggered.
You can not do that with any other brand of arranger-keyboards.
If you are too weak as a pianoplayer to trigger the Fill at the exact time, then use a Foot controller or set the cue fashion of all fill-ins to a default value like "next measure, current measure".
***
Manual - Cue mode for the Style Element:
You can decide how a Variation or Fill Style Element will enter after having been selected.
▪ Go to the Style Record > Main page, and use the Cue mode pop-up menu to choose the way the Style Element will enter.
Immediate, first measure: The Style Element enters immediately, and begins from the first measure. Only available on Fills.
Immediate, current measure: The Style Element enters immediately, and begins from the current measure. Only available on Fills.
Next measure, first measure: The Style Element enters at the beginning of the next measure, and begins from the first measure of the new pattern. Available on both Fills and Variations.
Next measure, current measure: The Style Element enters at the beginning of the next measure, and begins from the current measure. Only available on Variations.
*
PS: I know, most of experienced Pa-users use fill-ins without having problems with them - and know the excellent cue parameters!?
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: No Breakage - learn how to use Cue-params for to trigger Reply with quote

What do you think what happens if cue-mode is set to "immediately" and you do not trigger correctly? Did you ever try "immediately" settings?

Do you know cue-mode-settings of Styles Fill-Ins you just play or you want to play next?

Do you use Fill-In corresponding to cue-mode-settings or will the Fill button be operated randomly at some point?
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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