Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Kronos - disappointment...
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jovco



Joined: 03 Nov 2018
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Hi guys, I'm new on this forum, and I'm new Kronos user.

I bought Kronos five days ago, and And I played mostly in program mode, and
I was totally excited how everything sounded, but...

When I tried to make some combis I've encountered great constraints in terms of polyphony, and I don't know is it just my unit, or is this a general problem with Kronos?

I always loved Korg because of 16 timbre combis, as I like to layer more sounds to create unique sound, but now I can't do it because I have huge voice stealing, and note drop off...even if I just use piano and some EXs18 strings, when using damper it will increase a cpu and start polyphony problems...

I know it's depends on each engine, but when I was doing my research, before buying, I didn't know that I will have these problems, I was thinking that somehow in combi polyphony will be devided between engines, and not summed up.

When I realise the problem, I even find it on programs...When i use program U-A000 Doubled Screamer, and just play three note chords randomly, voice CPU, Voice stealing, and number of sounding voices will increase dramatically.

Is something wrong with my Kronos?

My English is not so good, but I hope that someone will understand what I try to say, and eventualy help me.

I simply can't believe that I spent all my money, and I can't layer 3-4 sounds without losing notes.
If I was know this before buying, I think that I wouldn't buy it at all.

Did I miss something, or it is what it is?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jeremykeys
Platinum Member


Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 2956
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not at my Kronos right now but one of the things that can be done to limit voice steeling is to turn off the level meters. You access this by first tapping the Global button, From there you will find a box that you can check that turns off the meters. I"m not exactly sure what page it is on but if I remember correctly it is somewhere near the lower edge of the screen near the middle.
Hope this helps. If not, if you give us an idea of what programs you are using to build your combis, we might be able to recreate the combi and see if we also have the same problem. If we don't find any voice steeling, then I would think there is something wrong with your Kronos.

Good luck!
Jeremykeys
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 accoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 2 cats!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Artcutech



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im really interested to see how this plays out, Im getting ready to buy a kronos on Black Friday but was thinking about next week as I have a sweet deal as of right now but would like to know more about how this situation plays out

Ill prob buy it regardless but the more to look out for the better
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
voip
Platinum Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 1638

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting to grips with polyphony and the impact it has will help to understand where the limitations are and how to get round them.

The Kronos is still way ahead of the rest of the pack in terms of the collective features and sounds it offers.

The Program mentioned, Doubled Screamer, is a double Program, using one instance each of the MS20 and Polysix engines. However, looking at the Play | Perf Meters tab, it can be seen that playing and holding just a single note uses 8 voices, which arises because of the way in which voices have been implemented in each of the synths. Repeatedly playing just one note, or a series of single notes, soon invokes 48 or even 52 voices. This is because the sounds do not cut off the instant a key is released, but sustain, and this requires voices to be utilised to play the sustained part of the sound after the key has been released. Playing a succession of three note chords would require three times as many voices.

However, try going to the Play tab, and select the Control Surface tab, and in the Control / Assign switch section at the left of the keyboard, press Timbre/Track. The screen now shows the relevant control surface. Move the Mix Volumes slider number 1 to its minimum position, which fades out the Polysix part, and play a few notes. It should immediately be clear that the MS-20 sound that remains is extremely quiet over most of the keyboard range, and only becomes relatively loud when notes in the lower register are played.

If the MS-20 is removed (set to "off") using the Program, Common | Basic/Vector tab, the number of voices being used will be halved, with little or no effect on the sound, except in the lower register. The Polysix has much higher polyphony than the MS-20 (see below).

Info on Kronos engines and their maximum polyphony, from the user manual and spec sheet:
HD-1 single 140 voices, double 70 voices
SGX-2 dual stereo 100 voices (equivalent to 400 mono voices)
AL-1 single 80 voices
STR-1 single 40 voices
CX-3 200 voices
MS-20 40 voices
PolySix 180 voices
MOD-7 52 voices
EP-1 104 voices

The Yamaha Montage offers 128 voices or equivalents.

The Moog One Poly has up to 16 voices.

.


Last edited by voip on Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:11 am; edited 7 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 7038
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go to Global /System prefs/ Mute mode

Change from Studio to Live Mode.

Save/write your Global change

That should solve the problem
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Poseidon



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Jovco wrote:
... I don't know is it just my unit, or is this a general problem with Kronos?
...
Did I miss something, or it is what it is?


The answer is simple - Kronos is underpowered, and you are not alone.
Wait for the guarantee to expire and replace CPU: Intel Atom D2500 (1.86 GHz) with D2700 (2.13 GHz). I have not done it yet 'cos I just bought Kronos recently, but I will (have already CPU waiting). I was disappointed like you, and still I am.
However I do find Kronos a very exciting workstation regardless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ITguy54
Junior Member


Joined: 22 Mar 2015
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artcutech wrote:
Im really interested to see how this plays out, Im getting ready to buy a kronos on Black Friday but was thinking about next week as I have a sweet deal as of right now but would like to know more about how this situation plays out

Ill prob buy it regardless but the more to look out for the better


From what retailer are you expecting Black Friday discounts on a Kronos?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jovco



Joined: 03 Nov 2018
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the replies.

I will try to exit level meters, but I doubt that this will solve the problem.

I changed from studio to live mode, it did not help.

I understand that some programs are very demanding in terms of polyphony, but that's not something I should worry about in this expensive instrument.

I kept the money for months, because I do not earn it easy, and now I have come to the point that for all that money I can not create a combi with the sounds I like, but Instead I should find some that I don't like so much, and use them, because they are less demanding, such as some sounds which are identical to M3. If I wanted to play M3 I would not buy the Kronos.

One more thing, when I pulled out a new keyboard (Kronos 2-73) from the box, and checked if all the keys were working, I could not believe that one key in the last octave sometimes remains stuck and does not return.
I thought maybe I can manage it to work with constant use, but that did not happen.
Of course, I have a warranty, and can fix it, but I can not hide my disappointment, because these things should not happen.

On the other hand, I'm really excited how Kronos sounds, I'm more than happy in that way, but feelings are mixed, because the problems I have.

I really don't know what to do now.

Thank you once more for your replies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 430
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello jovco,

Sorry you've encountered these issues.

Is your Kronos a new one or a second hand ?

You say one key doesn't work. I've never heard such a problem with a new Kronos. If its a new Kronos, I think you should get it back and ask for a replacement.

(Changin only the CPU, as it has been said above, won't change anything. Just give a look here : https://(Software Piracy Do Not Click).blogspot.com/).

Using open sampling system can be a way around. That way you can free midi voices by using WAV file you sampled before.
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Studiologic Sledge 2, Yamaha P90, Soundcraft EFX12, JBL LSR308
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Poseidon



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Changin only the CPU, as it has been said above, won't change anything.


I must disagree with you.
Atom D2700 CPU is exact as D2500; the difference is slightly higher clock only.
The replacement does not require any hacking, kernel patches etc...
There is to expect some tiny boost in performance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 430
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Changin only the CPU, as it has been said above, won't change anything.


I must disagree with you.
Atom D2700 CPU is exact as D2500; the difference is slightly higher clock only.
The replacement does not require any hacking, kernel patches etc...
There is to expect some tiny boost in performance.


Ok if you want ! What can be said is that, for 272 Mhz increase only, you won't hear any difference !
Anyway, the Intel Atom D2700 isn't on the market anymore, so ...
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Studiologic Sledge 2, Yamaha P90, Soundcraft EFX12, JBL LSR308
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 430
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Jovco wrote:
... I don't know is it just my unit, or is this a general problem with Kronos?
...
Did I miss something, or it is what it is?


The answer is simple - Kronos is underpowered, and you are not alone.


Saying Kronos is underpowered doesn't have any sense.
If you ask a GT car to compete in an F1 race, it will be underpowered; for sure. But if you compete in a GT race with it, it won't. It's a common sense.

So if you don't ask the Kronos for all it is not able to do, well it won't be underpowered.
Don't ask for the Kronos to produce an infinite polyphony, it won't be able to do.

Keep in track with all it is able to produce and you will enjoy it. After a 8 years existence, Kronos is still the more powerful hardware workstation.

Of course, we can always be unhappy for everything. But, one thing is sure : many, many Kronos owners are so happy with it and are doing excellent job with it. Thtat's my case.
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Studiologic Sledge 2, Yamaha P90, Soundcraft EFX12, JBL LSR308
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
QuiRobinez
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2179
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polyphony management is normal on synths and workstations, all synths have that (including VST's on computers), on my facebook channel i post a lot of tips and tricks, here's one of that posts that gives you some insight on what to do on the kronos when you hit the max polyphony of the kronos.
Especially tip 3 is an important one to keep the combi going.

Combi Tips and tricks: When creating korg kronos combis, sometimes you hit the polyphony limits when playing with those sounds. So if you have those note stealing issues then here are some tips to get more out polyphony of your combis.

For more cpu power and less note stealing four things are important in combi mode.

1: in global mode - basic tab (system preference section) you see a option called Mute Mode: set this one to Live (now the mute behavior in combi mode is changed) if you mute a timbre while playing it won't take any polyphony and cpu resources anymore. If you leave it to the default Studio setting, then it still consumes cpu en polyphony because only the audio path is muted and not anything else. So use the setting: Live
- don't forget to save the global settings to the right top menu to save your kronos this way.

2: if you use Effects, reassign effects to several timbres. For instance when using a delay effect for timbre 1, 2 and 3, there is nothing wrong with assigning one delay effect and use that one delay effect for all three timbres. If you use three delay effects then obviously this will take much more cpu power then one. This applies of course to all effects used. Same for a reverb, just set the reverb in one of the MFX slots and use the send channel for each timbre to determine the amount of reverb.

3: a very important feature is the timbre Priority checkbox on the combi - Timbre parameter tab - Midi subtab. Basically what this does is influences the note stealing of each timbre. For your main sounds (like drums and bass) set this priority to ON (checked). For pads and other sounds that are less important leave it off (unchecked). Don't activate the priority for every timbre. So let's say you play a piano with a pad underneath, you have the priority checked for the piano and unchecked for the pad. Now when you play and run out of cpu the kronos will try to keep the sound going for the piano and it steals some notes of the pad sound. It does this really good and most people won't hear it in a band context.

4: in firmware 3.04 or higher there is a setting in global mode where you can turn the level meters off which add some polyphony. So set this one also to off.
_________________
Qui Robinez Sound Design: Click here for Sound sets and Tutorials for the Korg Kronos and Korg Pa4x
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Poseidon



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
... many Kronos owners are so happy with it and are doing excellent job with it....


and I am one of them.
Did I mention at the end "However I do find Kronos a very exciting workstation regardless"
I add that I am planning to buy 61-key version ( mine is 8Cool

Liviou2004 wrote:
272 Mhz increase only

That probably would make some factory COMBIs within polyphony limit ( 2 voices extra).

Liviou2004 wrote:
Don't ask for the Kronos to produce an infinite polyphony, it won't be able to do.

That's what I am learning slowly, however it comes at a cost of restrain yourself from creativity. STR-1 & MS-20 engines (used with Karma) practically are off the table.

Liviou2004 wrote:
Saying Kronos is underpowered doesn't have any sense


Korg Kronos is a monster when comes to features. If we look at it as 9 seperate synths in one box, then you are right. But because of COMBI and SEQ mode ( 9 synths as a one), CPU inside is desired to be faster, the current is underpowered.
It's not only polyphony, but scrolling programs is sluggish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
QuiRobinez
Approved Merchant
Approved Merchant


Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2179
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:

That's what I am learning slowly, however it comes at a cost of restrain yourself from creativity. STR-1 & MS-20 engines (used with Karma) practically are off the table.


That's strange, because the ms-20 doesn't take that much cpu in my opinion. Here's a small demo with three ms-20's driven by KARMA GE's and extra pad sounds and multiple drumtracks, all in one combi just live.

This was recorded by me 5 years ago, the youtube sound conversion wasn't as good as nowadays, but it shows that the kronos can easely do these kind of things (there was enough cpu power left to add more sounds if i needed it)


_________________
Qui Robinez Sound Design: Click here for Sound sets and Tutorials for the Korg Kronos and Korg Pa4x
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group