Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Kronos - disappointment...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 7040
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Jovco wrote:
... I don't know is it just my unit, or is this a general problem with Kronos?
...
Did I miss something, or it is what it is?


The answer is simple - Kronos is underpowered, and you are not alone.


Saying Kronos is underpowered doesn't have any sense.

Don't ask for the Kronos to produce an infinite polyphony, it won't be able to do.

Keep in track with all it is able to produce and you will enjoy it. After a 8 years existence, Kronos is still the more powerful hardware workstation.

.


I have posted this a dozen times. And its not just my gripe.

If you are in SEQ mode ( or Combi mode], insert a large Orchestra , E guitar with heavy FX, a CX 3 and an EP1 program, a MOD7 instrument you will likely blast out of Polyphony and click like a loud clock

IOW, if you take advantage of the K's best engines all at once for recording like I do, the K is definitely limited.

I am beyond complaining, I accept and workaround the K's limits. I added a 2nd keyboard to my K, which is typically what keyboardists have done to add more voices/gain polyphony.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
19naia
Platinum Member


Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 977

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why 16 timbres in a combi when the polyphony limits cannot readily handle a full simple 16 layer combi?

In the world of midi, there are 16 midi channels.
And when you understand the world of using midi, you will see just how useful 16 midi part options are. Really good for complex and phat layers in a studio or stage rig with multiple devices paired to work together under common control.

It is not a waste of space to have gone up from 8 to 16 midi part options.
External devices control or inerface is part of Kronos capabilities.

Also you can start your layers in Program mode. Yes programs can let you stack at least 2 layers and even split them.
HD-1 can layer piano with strings or pad, or layer any mix of instruments. Half of your polyphony is most often already used up in Program mode layering.
You will have to learn the workings of HD-1 velocity layering features, before you can work out basic layering options in HD-1. Velocity layering is a very nice feature along side regular layering, and velocity layers do not reduce polyphony even when they go 8 layers deep.

I keep my combi’s 8 layers deep or less. But i have some that go 8 or 12 layers where more dynamic setups are going such as a layer zoned to sound out on a single note and other layers played only by Karma GE’s and using no sustain or hold. Also drum track layer using no sustain or hold.

Also combi layer scene switching can easily use up all 16 layers where switchng between 4-timbre layer-groups can let you toggle between 4 different combis while set up in a single combi page.
It is a Karma function that makes 16 midi-part options really useful without reaching polyphony limit issues.

I have a combi that uses all 16, where 2 of the parts are external midi devices, 4 parts are Karma driven with GE selections that minimally impact on polyphony. A part on drum track and a part that comes in only for a few seconds when i use the timbre on/off switch to bring it in and out.

When you understand kronos well enough, you will see it has the means to use all 16 midi part options in one performance that is highly orchestrated.
Highly orchetrated means not every part in the ensemble plays in unison throughout the whole performance. Some come in as others drop out and some come in very sparsely.

It can get even more dynamic in sequencer mode with Automation and RPPR.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Poseidon



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

QuiRobinez wrote:
Poseidon wrote:

That's what I am learning slowly, however it comes at a cost of restrain yourself from creativity. STR-1 & MS-20 engines (used with Karma) practically are off the table.


That's strange, because the ms-20 doesn't take that much cpu in my opinion. Here's a small demo with three ms-20's driven by KARMA GE's and extra pad sounds and multiple drumtracks, all in one combi just live.


I did few COMBIs ( 3 tracks only!) where STR-1 engine ( 1 track only) was a cause of stealing notes. If I remember it was Sitar & Tambura one of them. I mention MS-20 only because it has comparable polyphony to STR-1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SeedyLee
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1062
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Jovco wrote:



When I realise the problem, I even find it on programs...When i use program U-A000 Doubled Screamer, and just play three note chords randomly, voice CPU, Voice stealing, and number of sounding voices will increase dramatically.


Personally, I don't feel the Kronos is underpowered, even compared to more recent competition. The issue with the Kronos is that it allows you to very easily exhaust the power it has, sometimes for negligible gain.

Of course, we'd all like more power ...

The example you gave of the Double Screamer patch is an interesting one. I wasn't able to get any voice stealing to occur when playing a triad as per you post, but certainly was with more complex passages.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

    Trust the voice stealing algorithm: it's very good and far ahead of the competition. In most cases, the performance meter might show voice stealing is taking place, but it's imperceptible.

    In the case of the Double Screamer patch, Unison is set to 4. That means you're effectively playing 8 soft synths simultaneously - 4 instances of the MS20 and 4 instances of the PolySix, all with incredibly low latency. I'm genuinely curious to know how most computers would handle 8 decent virtual analogue VSTs with equivalent latency of around 3ms, KARMA and still allowing 16 effects...


Easy solution: turn the Unison down to 2 (it sounds very similar) or off, and/or use an effect to fatten it up. Won't sound 100% the same, but it will be pretty close.

In other news, I found some u-he Diva patches on my PC I really like. But why can't I have sixteen tracks of them all playing realtime with quality set to max? My computer must be underpowered! Wink
_________________
Message me on BlackBerry Messenger: 2B3628BE
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, , Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Behringer BCR2000, Yamaha QY70, VocalWorks+, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge.

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Liviou2004
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 430
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
Jovco wrote:



When I realise the problem, I even find it on programs...When i use program U-A000 Doubled Screamer, and just play three note chords randomly, voice CPU, Voice stealing, and number of sounding voices will increase dramatically.


Personally, I don't feel the Kronos is underpowered, even compared to more recent competition. The issue with the Kronos is that it allows you to very easily exhaust the power it has, sometimes for negligible gain.

Of course, we'd all like more power ...


I do agree. And If a new Workstation would release now, with a multiplied power, I'm quite sure we would find some who would say it is still underpowered.
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Studiologic Sledge 2, Yamaha P90, Soundcraft EFX12, JBL LSR308
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pete.m
Full Member


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, Liviou. People would just complain.

Another common gripe on the forum is the supposed lack of programs available (just over 2500!). I am currently taking a couple of days out to work through my programs and initialise the ones that I will never really use. It's not hard to reduce the number of near-identical pianos, electric pianos, acoustic guitars, basses, organs, string sections etc etc and then to delete pretty much all the sax and woodwind patches as well.
I estimate that I will have freed up at least 900 patches with no loss of variety when I am done, and can then start updating my PCG with more sample libraries, SFs and various other PCGs. When I load a sample library, I don't have to keep all the programs that go with it - just the few that I actually need. I can also have multiple PCGs, of course.

We are lucky to have the luxury to be able to do this kind of thing, as anyone who remembers some of the older synths with virtually no memory will testify. But sometimes having too much choice can create headaches of its own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 7040
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete.m wrote:
You're right, Liviou. People would just complain.

Another common gripe on the forum is the supposed lack of programs available (just over 2500!). I am currently taking a couple of days out to work through my programs and initialise the ones that I will never really use. It's not hard to reduce the number of near-identical pianos, electric pianos, acoustic guitars, basses, organs, string sections etc etc and then to delete pretty much all the sax and woodwind patches as well.
I estimate that I will have freed up at least 900 patches with no loss of variety when I am done, and can then start updating my PCG with more sample libraries, SFs and various other PCGs. When I load a sample library, I don't have to keep all the programs that go with it - just the few that I actually need. I can also have multiple PCGs, of course.

We are lucky to have the luxury to be able to do this kind of thing, as anyone who remembers some of the older synths with virtually no memory will testify. But sometimes having too much choice can create headaches of its own.


I think many of have been around for some years and we can distinguish ' complaining' vs making a solid and objective assessment of Kronos.

IOW, due to years of experience with the K, I don't worry about someone simply
'complaining' on the Internet

There are at least 2 huge and unique strengths of Kronos;
-sample streaming from SSD
- large variety of established 3rd party sample libraries

MODX/Montage does not have this and never will.

We can ' reinvent ' our K's as we wish, with some investment.

Of course, we rely on the longevity and strength of common computer components on the K.

I feel confident since that there are no reported breakdowns of our 7 year Kronos'. I don't gig so I don't expect to experience quirks due to banging the K around.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
danmusician
Platinum Member


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 806
Location: Southern PA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:

Liviou2004 wrote:
272 Mhz increase only

That probably would make some factory COMBIs within polyphony limit ( 2 voices extra).


I'm very interested in finding out if this assertion is accurate. As the Kronos has advanced from Original to KronosX to Krono2, there's been no change in performance even though the motherboards have advanced. I've assumed that this was by design in the OS to keep the Kronos experience the same throughout the various models.
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49, MOTU Mach 5, Authorized Steinway, Real Guitar, MOTU 896HD, Digital Performer, Band-in-a-Box with Real Tracks, iPad Pro, Bose L1 Model II, Bose L1 Compact
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
SeedyLee
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1062
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a file on the Kronos that defines the polyphony limit per engine. This file, and these limits, are identical between the Kronos, Kronos X and Kronos 2.

The newer Kronos may remain slightly more responsive when the CPU is under stress, but there should be no difference in the polyphony.

Also, GregC, for recording and sequencing purposed, the Kronos offers something that very few other hardware keyboards today do: A 16 track hard disk recorder, which can work in concert with the 16 sequencer tracks. This makes it possible to use the Kronos for much more demanding compositions. On the ModX and Montage, once you're out of polyphony, you're out of polyphony.
_________________
Message me on BlackBerry Messenger: 2B3628BE
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, , Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Behringer BCR2000, Yamaha QY70, VocalWorks+, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge.

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Poseidon



Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

danmusician wrote:
Poseidon wrote:

Liviou2004 wrote:
272 Mhz increase only

That probably would make some factory COMBIs within polyphony limit ( 2 voices extra).


I'm very interested in finding out if this assertion is accurate. As the Kronos has advanced from Original to KronosX to Krono2, there's been no change in performance even though the motherboards have advanced. I've assumed that this was by design in the OS to keep the Kronos experience the same throughout the various models.


Below are few of notes that might interest you.

1. Atom D2500 is soldered on a board, as a result, upgrading or replacing it is extremely difficult. The qualified person must do that only.

2. Both D2500 and D2700 have same thermal design (10W), so overheating should not be an issue.

3. it is not going to be easy to get Atom D2700 now.

4. Both D2500 and D2700 have 2 cores, but D2700 offers 2 extra Hyper-Threading threads. Would that lead to even better boost then 2 voices ? it's up to kernel.

I will make a post of this operation once the warranty expires. I bought my Kronos 88 on June 2018.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
danmusician
Platinum Member


Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 806
Location: Southern PA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
There is a file on the Kronos that defines the polyphony limit per engine. This file, and these limits, are identical between the Kronos, Kronos X and Kronos 2.

The newer Kronos may remain slightly more responsive when the CPU is under stress, but there should be no difference in the polyphony.



Poseidon wrote:
4. Both D2500 and D2700 have 2 cores, but D2700 offers 2 extra Hyper-Threading threads. Would that lead to even better boost then 2 voices ? it's up to kernel.


I don't believe the OS is written to take advantage of this.
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49, MOTU Mach 5, Authorized Steinway, Real Guitar, MOTU 896HD, Digital Performer, Band-in-a-Box with Real Tracks, iPad Pro, Bose L1 Model II, Bose L1 Compact
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Liviou2004
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 430
Location: Fontainebleau - France

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos - disappointment... Reply with quote

danmusician wrote:
SeedyLee wrote:
There is a file on the Kronos that defines the polyphony limit per engine. This file, and these limits, are identical between the Kronos, Kronos X and Kronos 2.

The newer Kronos may remain slightly more responsive when the CPU is under stress, but there should be no difference in the polyphony.



Poseidon wrote:
4. Both D2500 and D2700 have 2 cores, but D2700 offers 2 extra Hyper-Threading threads. Would that lead to even better boost then 2 voices ? it's up to kernel.


I don't believe the OS is written to take advantage of this.


Absolutely true if kept as it is and with the same hardware but just have a look to the link I gave above ( https://(Software Piracy Do Not Click).blogspot.com/). One guy has replaced all the core system of the Kronos : motherboad and CPU and kernel. Here are two excerpts :

Quote:
Here is what I came up with:

Mainboard: Supermicro X11SSV-Q (Mini-ITX, has 2 serial ports - nice!)
CPU: 6th Generation Core i3-6320 (2 Cores, each with almost 4 GHz - comparison with the CPU inside the Kronos X)
8 GB DDR3 Memory
A fast SSD (adjust size to personal taste)



Quote:
Results (updated):

Kronos boot time < 20s
200 voice polyphony accross all engines (even STR-1 and MS-20).
Total cost: ~ $520



What is clear is that for enhancing polyphony, you have to modify some system files. In that case, we have to modify linux kernel too.
In order to reach 200 voices polyphony, he had to install a 3,9 Ghz CPU !

One another guy followed the procedure, and seemed to succeed : https://marcan.st/2016/06/hacking-and-upgrading-the-korg-kronos/
_________________
Kronos 2 73, Studiologic Sledge 2, Yamaha P90, Soundcraft EFX12, JBL LSR308
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pete.m
Full Member


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'I think many of have been around for some years and we can distinguish ' complaining' vs making a solid and objective assessment of Kronos.

IOW, due to years of experience with the K, I don't worry about someone simply
'complaining' on the Internet'


Thanks, Greg - I can distinguish between the two as well. I was referring to those who complain about supposedly crippling limitations on the Kronos - a bizarre thing to do anyway, but all the more so given the long lists of synths and full software set-ups that some append to their posts. Kind of makes you wonder how anyone ever managed to complete a piece of music before about 2015. Somehow, heroically and against all the odds, people seemed to overcome the extraordinary technological restrictions and manage it. Only God knows how, but they did it. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jovco



Joined: 03 Nov 2018
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you guys for all your replies.

I spent two days with my Kronos and I read your posts and I realized where are the limitations, and slowly I began to think ahead and try to avoid problems.

I have never complained about the sounds and the other possibilities that Kronos gives, I know that there is nothing close to it and I'm very happy on that side.

It is clear to me that some of the syntheses are very demanding and that I can not just put them on top of each other, but that I need to plan more carefully and build a combis more carefully.

I've heard your tips and instructions and things go better.


Once again, thank you for your replies and your help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SeedyLee
Platinum Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1062
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another little trick you can use to get around limitations with polyphony is resembling - that is, sample the sound you want and convert it to a HD1 program. That will significantly free up processing power at the expense of memory and SSD. Because the Kronos supports streaming from the SSD, it’s usually not even necesasary to loop the samples.

Downsides are that the resampled version won’t necessarily respond to tempo changes and you won’t have as much real-time control over the sound, plus it takes a little bit of work to setup. But within an hour you should be able to have a very good result.
_________________
Message me on BlackBerry Messenger: 2B3628BE
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, , Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200, Motu 828 mk3, Presonus FaderPort, Motu MicroLite, Behringer BCR2000, Yamaha QY70, VocalWorks+, Rode NT1-A, Tascam VLX5 Monitors Tascam CD Player, Shure SRH840 Headphones. Shure IEM, Shure SM58, JBL PRX12 monitor wedge.

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group