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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
Great post, Greg!


Thank you, brother !

I hope to keep feeding the topic
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" if you worry too much about having a roof over your head, you will never see the stars "

- Beck Bennett
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it wasn’t for weird, life would be Walmart:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2961387#Post2961387

We’re confused by weird. Our notion of normalcy gets thrown out of whack. If you’re a weird kid, you despise yourself. Your teachers despise you. They send notes home to your parents, complaining about your lack of attention and constant fidgeting. We’re not exactly a danger to society, but nobody holds out any hope for us.

Unless we write “Bohemian Rhapsody,” then the whole world wants our autograph and calls us a genius “with rare and delightful insights.”

History is full of people trying to stifle weird. When George Orwell first submitted “Animal Farm,” he got a letter back from the publishers saying, “It’s impossible to sell animal stories in the U.S.A.” It went on to become the most famous by far of all twentieth-century political allegories. Napoleon and Squealer were hard to beat as nasty political pigs, and somehow we found that appealing. Pigs, by the way, are quite noble and sensitive creatures.

Tim Burton’s “Batman” gave Warner Brothers the hebbie-jeebies. It was dark as hell and cost $35,000,000 to make, yet it earned $100,000,000 the first ten days. Jack Nicholson (The Joker) took a percentage in lieu of salary (or in addition to salary). He made a killing. The studio made a killing. They let Burton do “Batman Returns,” which broke box office records as well. Even with that, Burton admits they wanted him off the lot. Too weird by a mile.

It’s amazing how many classics started out being seen as weird. John Lennon never liked McCartney’s concept for “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.” “I just threw in some songs,” he later admitted. “They didn’t have anything to do with the concept. I found the whole thing contrived.”

he album went on to win four Grammies and Professor Kevin Dettmar, writng in The Oxford Encyclopedia of British Literature described it as “the most important and influencial rock-and-roll album ever recorded.” Lennon still thought it was contrived and weird and didn’t think much of McCartney suggesting it.

Contrived can be seen as weird yet, during the psychedelic era, dressing in old military band uniforms proved acceptably freaky. Sales topped 32 million copies worldwide by 2011, a long time considering we stopped taking acid around 1969.

etc etc
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ChrisDuncan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
My head has been spinning for almost 2 years on what I call 'promotion'. IOW, locally, I promote, and have little to show for the effort.

Believe me, brother, I know exactly what you mean.

I've written a number of books. The people who read them seem to respond well to my style of writing. Getting my books in front of the people who would be interested in reading them? That's another thing entirely.

Creative talent is only one ingredient for success. Without adequate promotion, you can have the greatest art the world has ever experienced but no one will know.

There's a misconception in the book world (typically by new authors) that the publisher will promote and sell your books. They will not. They'll help you write the best book possible. They also have distribution (but these days, who doesn't?). Promotion is a job the author is expected to do. It's not difficult to apply this example to making records.

I actually quit writing books a couple of years ago, not because I don't enjoy it, but due to my frustration in the promotion end of things. As you mention, it's all about finding the right audience, getting in front of them, and having something to say that they care about. Sounds easy, right?

I have a number of alleged talents. Promotion doesn't appear to be among them. So, even though I have more I'd like to say in both the non-fiction and possibly even fiction realms, I hesitate to start another book because what's the point of all the effort unless someone (with more talent than me) is going to get it in front of people who would enjoy it? If a book falls in the forest but there's no one around to read it, why kill the tree in the first place?

My example is about the publishing world, but it applies to all of the creative arts. Bands make great music, and these days anyone can load up a DAW and make a record. Getting it heard? That's another story. Sure, you can add it to all the popular streaming services, but that still doesn't mean anyone will find it.

The same goes for making movies, web video and perhaps even dancing about architecture.

It's not enough to create great art. Someone has to get it in front of people. Without that, we're just a bunch of guys with nice toys.
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ChrisDuncan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
If it wasn’t for weird, life would be Walmart:
Unless we write “Bohemian Rhapsody,” then the whole world wants our autograph and calls us a genius “with rare and delightful insights.”


Timing is another factor in success. In 1975, we had AOR (Album Oriented Rock) radio stations, and even a few surviving "Underground FM" stations who would play the long ("Nights in White Satin") and weird ("Bohemian Rhapsody"). And American culture was interested in that sort of thing.

Using "Nights" as an example, young society was very philosophical in that era, and the search for spiritual truth and meaning was trendy. A deep and meaningful song that stopped to recite a poem in the middle? People wanted that sort of thing. Today, science is in, spiritual truth seeking is out, and the Moody Blues would be either ignored or derided.

Being weird, even in a wonderfully creative way, doesn't guarantee success. You have to be weird in a way that your generation wants to embrace. Otherwise, you're just weird.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisDuncan wrote:
GregC wrote:
My head has been spinning for almost 2 years on what I call 'promotion'. IOW, locally, I promote, and have little to show for the effort.

Believe me, brother, I know exactly what you mean.

I've written a number of books. The people who read them seem to respond well to my style of writing. Getting my books in front of the people who would be interested in reading them? That's another thing entirely.

Creative talent is only one ingredient for success. Without adequate promotion, you can have the greatest art the world has ever experienced but no one will know.

There's a misconception in the book world (typically by new authors) that the publisher will promote and sell your books. They will not. They'll help you write the best book possible. They also have distribution (but these days, who doesn't?). Promotion is a job the author is expected to do. It's not difficult to apply this example to making records.

I actually quit writing books a couple of years ago, not because I don't enjoy it, but due to my frustration in the promotion end of things. As you mention, it's all about finding the right audience, getting in front of them, and having something to say that they care about. Sounds easy, right?

I have a number of alleged talents. Promotion doesn't appear to be among them. So, even though I have more I'd like to say in both the non-fiction and possibly even fiction realms, I hesitate to start another book because what's the point of all the effort unless someone (with more talent than me) is going to get it in front of people who would enjoy it? If a book falls in the forest but there's no one around to read it, why kill the tree in the first place?

My example is about the publishing world, but it applies to all of the creative arts. Bands make great music, and these days anyone can load up a DAW and make a record. Getting it heard? That's another story. Sure, you can add it to all the popular streaming services, but that still doesn't mean anyone will find it.

The same goes for making movies, web video and perhaps even dancing about architecture.

It's not enough to create great art. Someone has to get it in front of people. Without that, we're just a bunch of guys with nice toys.


Hey Chris, totally agree. Well said. We both know ' what does not work ' or is incomplete for some type of successful promotion.

Lets go out side the music box for some help. Real estate agents in California.
They are ferocious tenacious humans in my state. I have 2 acquaintances that are realtors. Both are successful. They are relentless promoters. Every day, every minute.

I can't be like them just because I recognize 'how ' they make it happen.

Even while, I have promotional ideas, which I sling against the wall every 2 days, its all crap shoot. Realistically, I might have to hire a promoter to elevate
my product to the next level. Assuming my product is suitable above its current niche of listeners.
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ChrisDuncan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Hey Chris, totally agree. Well said. We both know ' what does not work ' or is incomplete for some type of successful promotion.

Lets go out side the music box for some help. Real estate agents in California.
They are ferocious tenacious humans in my state. I have 2 acquaintances that are realtors. Both are successful. They are relentless promoters. Every day, every minute.

I can't be like them just because I recognize 'how ' they make it happen.

Even while, I have promotional ideas, which I sling against the wall every 2 days, its all crap shoot. Realistically, I might have to hire a promoter to elevate
my product to the next level. Assuming my product is suitable above its current niche of listeners.

In a previous life, after I quit playing music for a living, I first worked as a salesman and ultimately ran a sales consulting company training people in very aggressive, high pressure tactics. I was very good at what I did. Then I woke up sober one morning, decided that's not the man I wanted to be, and found a new way to make a living (software development).

There's a common misconception that sales / marketing / promotion are the same things. Marketing / promotion can be said in the same breath, which we'll just call promotion, but that's a completely different thing from sales. Promotion is letting the world know you exist, in a manner that makes you look appealing. Sales is walking up to someone and not walking away until they hand you their wallet. Promotion is passive by nature. You make noise and hope someone knocks on your door tomorrow and asks if they can give you their money. Sales just walks right up and asks for it, refusing to take no for an answer.

Realtors are salespeople. Anything they do in the area of "promotion" is actually known in the trade as "generating leads." The promotion doesn't sell the house. The realtor does. Promotion gives them a long list of people they can try to sell to (or get listings from). So far, so good. Got a product to sell? Grab someone by the collar and don't let go until they say yes. Don't know whose collar to grab? Do some promoting to build a list of leads. Then go grab some collars.

Here's where it gets tricky.

Most people today think the Internet is a great place to promote your wares. In reality, not so much. That's because it's a society unto itself with some strict moral codes that people tend to get pretty self righteous about. Let's say I have a book that I know everyone on this forum would enjoy. So, I make some posts telling people how great my book is and providing a link for them to buy it (promotion). While you're pondering that, I'll go grab my asbestos suit, because you know what's going to happen next. I would be flamed to within an inch of my life and then probably banned for life for being a spammer.

Realtors don't have that problem. They tried to sell you a house? Of course they tried to sell you a house! They're realtors! So people don't give it a second thought. Try that promoting stuff on the Internet and you'll soon find yourself drawn and quartered. If people are offended by commercials on TV (even though it allows them to get millions of dollars worth of programming for free), they're absolutely driven to a frenzy by promotion on a website. If you want to promote yourself (presumably for free) on the web, you need an incredibly delicate touch. And you're still going to get flamed. It's socially unacceptable.

If you remove the Internet from your promotion options, two things happen. First, you lose a free resource. Of course, if it's a hostile environment, being free is of limited value. Second, you're stepping back in time to the 80s and before, to consider other techniques. They still work. They're just not free.

For regular products, advertising is a form of promotion. There's an old joke in the biz, "Half my advertising doesn't work. I just don't know which half." You advertise and then test, test, test until you find one that makes people come knock on your door, wallet in hand. Or until people give you their contact information with an implicit agreement that yes, in fact, a salesman *will* call.

There are lots of ways to market, both for lead generation and to get passive sales. Most cost money. And yes, you could hire someone to do this. I'd love to go that route if I could find someone willing to work on a commission. In the book biz, however, they're called publicists and won't take your call for less than a $10,000 (initial) budget. Even then, you're back to "half my advertising doesn't work..." but even if it did, is there enough profit margin in your product to justify the overhead of someone to sell it? And / or do you have the budget to throw that money against the wall up front, hoping that it generates a profitable return on investment?

These are lessons I learned the hard way. I'm very, very good at sales, so I naively assumed I'd be good at marketing / promotion. Once neck deep in audience definition, demographic profiles, content marketing, etc. I realized it was a completely different world, and that I really had no talent for it. Unfortunately, books, music and other forms of art don't lend themselves to direct sales. Someone may knock on your door to sell you an encyclopedia. You won't answer the door to find someone with their latest album in hand.

While you may struggle with it, you're still ahead of most creative creatures. Many assume that if their music is good enough, word of mouth will do the work for them. An overwhelming majority are also offended by the merest thought of "selling" their art, as though it were some product (even though it is). 99% will simply sit on their posteriors, doing nothing, and then moan about the fact that no one is buying their art. You, on the other hand, keep taking swings at it. It doesn't matter how many times you fall down, what matters is how quickly you get back up.

There's no magic formula to this stuff other than putting forth the effort, which you're doing. If it seems like it's hard, that's because it is.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisDuncan wrote:
GregC wrote:
Hey Chris, totally agree. Well said. We both know ' what does not work ' or is inc

Even while, I have promotional ideas, which I sling against the wall every 2 days, its all crap shoot. Realistically, I might have to hire a promoter to elevate
my product to the next level. Assuming my product is suitable above its current niche of listeners.

In a previous life, after I quit playing music for a living, I first worked as a salesman and ultimately ran a sales consulting company training people in very aggressive, high pressure tactics. I was very good at what I did. Then I woke up sober one morning, decided that's not the man I wanted to be, and found a new way to make a living (software development).

.


I can expound on the promotional skills of my 2 realtor acquaintances. Promotion for them is a bag of tricks, and its a broad approach. Its not literal one size fits all.

If we were local, all this stuff would be good beer drinking/wine sipping time.

More similars. I majored in Marketing and spent my 1st year, floundering in 3 different sales jobs. Painful fail, day after day. I switched to Finance and I did well for 30 years. When I was 53, I finally had my fill of corporate BS.
And started/operated my own business for 10 yrs.

Being my own boss was ultimately my happy zone.
I retired at 63 and have found the ultimate endorphin- creating original
music . +43 on SoundCloud.

Even a fish out of water like me can build a listener base.

More beer talk- we can expound on the FUBAR music biz. I am always good for a rant on that but prefer drinks with that.
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ChrisDuncan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

always good for a rant on that but prefer drinks with that.

Sounds like we've chewed opposite sides of a lot the same turf over the years as I'm also a recovering serial entrepreneur. 61, still loving the programming biz (and not having to run my own business).

And definitely loving the fact that now I can play whatever I enjoy instead of "what gig do I have to take this week to pay the bills?"

The irony of it all is that my day gig allows me to have the studio of my dreams that I would have killed for when I was playing for a living - but couldn't afford because I was playing for a living. Rolling Eyes
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisDuncan wrote:
GregC wrote:

always good for a rant on that but prefer drinks with that.

Sounds like we've chewed opposite sides of a lot the same turf over the years as I'm also a recovering serial entrepreneur. 61, still loving the programming biz (and not having to run my own business).

And definitely loving the fact that now I can play whatever I enjoy instead of "what gig do I have to take this week to pay the bills?"

The irony of it all is that my day gig allows me to have the studio of my dreams that I would have killed for when I was playing for a living - but couldn't afford because I was playing for a living. Rolling Eyes


we are ghosting fer sure.

My tombstone will never say " he could play the piano part on Don't Stop Believin' "

I was gear deprived in my teens and 20's. I was broke, too, which didn't help.

We have the same later in life irony. I don't have the usual constraints or limits.
But I am picky picky about whatever I buy. No gear collecting or impulse buying. .
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

But I am picky picky about whatever I buy. No gear collecting or impulse buying. .

Yeah, guitar is my primary instrument and I just bought a Kemper last month, which resulted in selling every amplifier I had. Some of this crap I've been dragging around since 81. Much happier to have a smaller herd of higher creatures.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisDuncan wrote:
GregC wrote:

But I am picky picky about whatever I buy. No gear collecting or impulse buying. .

Yeah, guitar is my primary instrument and I just bought a Kemper last month, which resulted in selling every amplifier I had. Some of this crap I've been dragging around since 81. Much happier to have a smaller herd of higher creatures.


Funny you mention guitar. I am missing the analog and tonal quality of real guitars, etc in my originals.

As a baby step, I am mulling going more retro for a Rickenbacker 12 string. I have gotten good advice on this. I know, 60's etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

As a baby step, I am mulling going more retro for a Rickenbacker 12 string. I have gotten good advice on this. I know, 60's etc.

You probably already know this, but to complement the 60s Rick 12 string stuff you should consider a Vox.

The new 15 watt versions are excellent. I had both the AC15C combo and an AC15CH head (just sold both in the recent Kemper purge). If you have speaker cabs, I'd recommend the head as it has a built in attenuator - the combo doesn't - that runs at 15, 1.5 or 1/6 watt modes for lower volume. All three modes sound great.

For that jangly, happy 60s vibe you just can't beat the Vox stuff.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisDuncan wrote:
GregC wrote:

As a baby step, I am mulling going more retro for a Rickenbacker 12 string. I have gotten good advice on this. I know, 60's etc.

You probably already know this, but to complement the 60s Rick 12 string stuff you should consider a Vox.

The new 15 watt versions are excellent. I had both the AC15C combo and an AC15CH head (just sold both in the recent Kemper purge). If you have speaker cabs, I'd recommend the head as it has a built in attenuator - the combo doesn't - that runs at 15, 1.5 or 1/6 watt modes for lower volume. All three modes sound great.

For that jangly, happy 60s vibe you just can't beat the Vox stuff.


I didn't know about the Vox, very impressed by AC15CH head.
I like the versatility.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, of the two I always reached for the Vox head.

The attenuator was nice to have, but I always ran at 15 watts. However, because it needed speakers I also ran it into my Marshall 4x12 (V30s) or a single V30 12. The combo is an open back cabinet and sounded a bit boxier to me, which of course is just the nature of the beast.

Either one of these things can go from jangly Byrds / Beatles to full on Queen without even needing an overdrive pedal. The built in vibrato is also excellent. For that classic Rick 12 string sound, I don't think there's a better match.

I also found myself switching between the Normal and Top Boost channels often depending on the sound I was going for, as they each have their own characteristics.
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