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Can you imagine Kronos without Karma ? Or a future "Kro
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Can you imagine Kronos without Karma ? Or a future "Kro Reply with quote

Like almost everyone else, I think Karma, as native to our Kronos, is great.

Its a major ingrediant to that unique Kronos sound, a happy partner to many Combis and Programs.

But we are getting closer to the window of 'change' with our favorite keyboard/work station.

There have been no Karma updates to Kronos since day 1, 2011.

I know about the standalone Karma software - thats not my context here.

Stephen can remind us, if he chooses. I vaguely recall that he and Korg amicably went their separate ways on the future of Karma.

Anyway, whatever the future brings, I want Karma native to any future Kronos.

Korg, like most other cos , does not discuss future product strategy/plans.

Not one to assume anything, I think Korg should hear this request for Karma loud and clear.
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Mike Conway
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I suspect is that Korg will go back to the arp pattern style, similar to the Triton series, but they will most likely add more simultaneous arps. If there is an upside, it will probably offer more intuitive user programmability, compared to KARMA. Maybe they will combine arps with advanced RPPR.

KARMA is definitely cool on the Kronos. I like that it is a technology developed outside of Korg. It allows the Kronos to do a lot of things that it could not by itself, and not just pattern related things.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Conway wrote:
What I suspect is that Korg will go back to the arp pattern style, similar to the Triton series, but they will most likely add more simultaneous arps. If there is an upside, it will probably offer more intuitive user programmability, compared to KARMA. Maybe they will combine arps with advanced RPPR.

KARMA is definitely cool on the Kronos. I like that it is a technology developed outside of Korg. It allows the Kronos to do a lot of things that it could not by itself, and not just pattern related things.


Your guess makes sense. What I thought was that Korg HQ wanted to go their own way when their new president came in 2011. IOW, fewer or no 3rd parties.

Without Karma, my song portfolio is halted at Kronos as scenes and drums are integrated. Have a personal interest in keeping the SNG format as is in the future- as a realist , this is not within my control.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karma is definitely a unique technology, inspiring and fun.
The idea of Karma dedicated keyboard from a Korg was a splendid idea.
The pianos should have too, as a great accompaniment engine.
But in workstations like Kronos I would preferrer an intuitive, simple, yet very capable programmable arpeggiator with a GUI like Waldorf QUANTUM.

When composing music I can hardly find any use of Karma.
Not to mention that Kronos CPU is underpowered to handle polyphony that Karma brings in.

When I play for pure enjoyment or family member, Karma show its true use - very enjoyable.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:

But in workstations like Kronos I would preferrer an intuitive, simple, yet very capable programmable arpeggiator with a GUI like Waldorf QUANTUM.

When composing music I can hardly find any use of Karma.
Not to mention that Kronos CPU is underpowered to handle polyphony that Karma brings in.

When I play for pure enjoyment or family member, Karma show its true use - very enjoyable.


Its cool to contrast our requirements/prefs.

I use Karma (esp Drums} on almost every original ( have 45 originals on SoundCloud].

My " Going Places " is strong example of Karma use
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994/going-places

Bottom line, I found a way to use Karma to add an extra dimension to my originals.

I viewed a 15 minute demo of Quantum and wasn't sure how and when I could implement it. I know this is not enough time.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

I use Karma (esp Drums} on almost every original ( have 45 originals on SoundCloud].


No doubt Kronos Drums are cool, they blend very well.

But I prefer BFD3 (Groove Editor is simply splendid and works for me), and for orchestral I use VLS ( Vienna Library ).

When I compose first I come up with melody followed by harmony ( these elements cannot be handicapped by any patterns or Karma, they come from me. I need a “space to breath freely”). I use piano roll or notation (in ext. sequencer) to arrange it,split it, correct if needed …etc…

Next comes BASS line, here actually KARMA could be quite helpful, but mostly I am ending up in external sequencer, or playing a bass guitar live ( got one - profile vintage)

The last comes drums ( if they are to be present, Timpanis, Snares and mallets are my preferable, probably driven by my style )

GregC wrote:
I viewed a 15 minute demo of Quantum and wasn't sure how and when I could implement it. I know this is not enough time.


I had a chance to play with Quantum programmable arpeggiator. I would buy this synth, but there are polyphony issues with layered voices. I am still hunting for semi-weight synth ( I need a semi-weight keys and to offload some voices from Kronos to gain polyphony)
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drama1
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa. I REALLY hope Karma is included in any future Kronos. I use it strictly for changing and layering programs and combinations, all without cutoff of sound. My stubby fingers work waaaaay better using the Scene buttons than using the screen for program/combi changes.
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laandodeman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never use Karma. Think it is stupid you cannot program it unless you buy software.
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kronoSphere
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really out of topic :
After the release of the Triton, those who had bought it were happy, but they were also very excited about the next successor of the Triton. Now that the Kronos is here, it is rather weird and curious to note the lack of enthusiasm in this forum for a successor of Kronos... Times are a changin' ???
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's Karma 3 - would be great if that were in the Kronos' successor!
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronoSphere wrote:
Not really out of topic :
After the release of the Triton, those who had bought it were happy, but they were also very excited about the next successor of the Triton. Now that the Kronos is here, it is rather weird and curious to note the lack of enthusiasm in this forum for a successor of Kronos... Times are a changin' ???


I think I can answer.

Kept a Triton or the Extreme [ a very nice keyboard w/Moss] for +10 years.
[2000-2011]

Even so, I dreamt of having the ultimate, Oasys, when it came out [2005].

As we know, it was very expensive , I admired it from a distance, thinking 'one day...'. I believe many Triton owners felt the same way, thus there was a lot of contained enthusiasm for a less expensive Oasys.

So when Korg announced Kronos at NAMM 2011, there was an explosion of interest and/or enthusiasm. It was an obvious 'must have' .

I think that 'quantifies' what happened.

Here we are today, 2019. Kronos seems popular today and is selling. I don't recall anyone, claiming to be bored with Kronos. Deep deep deep board, world of possibilities almost. Lots of 3rd party sample libs. I think its safe to say almost all are satisfied.

Plus folks that spent + $3000 on a Kronos in the past year or 2 are not going to be obsessive about a new expensive Kronos replacement , financially.

Lets play 'what if ' :
Korg does a great new Kronos replacement and its $3900. Many folks
will say '' aww shi$, I gotta have this $3900 great Korg keyboard, and I just spent $3000 on a Kronos and bought $600 of 3rd party samples "

So there are 2 strong reasons you don't see or sense or see the same strong
enthusiasm for a successor [ assuming its expensive].
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
GregC wrote:

I use Karma (esp Drums} on almost every original ( have 45 originals on SoundCloud].


No doubt Kronos Drums are cool, they blend very well.

But I prefer BFD3 (Groove Editor is simply splendid and works for me), and for orchestral I use VLS ( Vienna Library ).

When I compose first I come up with melody followed by harmony ( these elements cannot be handicapped by any patterns or Karma, they come from me. I need a “space to breath freely”). I use piano roll or notation (in ext. sequencer) to arrange it,split it, correct if needed …etc…

Next comes BASS line, here actually KARMA could be quite helpful, but mostly I am ending up in external sequencer, or playing a bass guitar live ( got one - profile vintage)

The last comes drums ( if they are to be present, Timpanis, Snares and mallets are my preferable, probably driven by my style )

GregC wrote:
I viewed a 15 minute demo of Quantum and wasn't sure how and when I could implement it. I know this is not enough time.


I had a chance to play with Quantum programmable arpeggiator. I would buy this synth, but there are polyphony issues with layered voices. I am still hunting for semi-weight synth ( I need a semi-weight keys and to offload some voices from Kronos to gain polyphony)


Great to see a serious song writer here. There are not many of us, from what I see. { serious= consistent, or writing new songs every month].

Not familiar with your material. Your approach is more orchestral, movie sound track-ish ?

Your choice of genre or ' song theme ' possibly influences your approach.

I usually start out with a rough chord progression with very simple LH bass.
Usually a 4-8 chord theme. From there, that theme needs rhythm, meter, structure, solid foundation. IOW, a solid drum part plus bass.

Everything else in my original flows from that. Melody, intro, verse, chorus, ending, solos, etc. Karma is a sound support tool, it has a role. Not an end in itself.

I have a topic called "Creative Corner ". Feel free to visit. I post something to it every week, usually.
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SoundsOfPlanet
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypothetical successor of Kronos without Karma ? – I can not imagine such solution.
I have already mentioned it earlier in my various posts, still in period when Korg M3 was the prime instrument from Korg, that without Karma on board, it would not be as successful (using very delicate words). Kronos is a huge step forward technology-wise, nevertheless without Karmy, it also would not be considered as such great smash hit. And probably also because of that factor (I mean Karma), being so many years on the market, Kronos still has no equal competitors. Such situation is the result of few things – modern system, streaming, multitude of available sound banks (well, for some there would never be enough of them Smile ) and of course the Karma. Recently, my good friend by good occasion became the owner of Yamahy Montage – allegedly competitor for Kronos – before he also had Kronos 1 and now Kronos 2 – and in his opinion, these thousands of arps in Yamaha Montage are not on par even in fraction with Karma in Kronos. Why? Because from one Karma cycle, we can easily generate 100 and more of other runs totally different that the original. Combis in Kronos are very playable, and even when not that skilful player puts a few chords – this instrument still is able to deliver a good performance. Whereas all we can see on demo videos for Yamaha Montage seems to be the maximum what is possible to get out of this instrument – and this is information from reliable source .

So lets hope that new Kronos successor will also have Karma onboard !

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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laandodeman wrote:
I never use Karma. Think it is stupid you cannot program it unless you buy software.


I think Stephen did the best he could with native Karma on Kronos.

Keep in mind, he doesn't own Korg. He partnered with Korg, and likely had parameters and time constraints , typical of any business partner arrangement.

We all have our requirements- or at least thats the way I see it.

I am satisfied with basic edits of Karma patterns in SEQ mode. This works very well for me for song writing. Which is my priority.

I can understand that sound programming and going deep on that on Kronos
is a priority for many. I think outside tools are needed , overall, to handle that level of creativity consistently. Knowing what limits/constraints exist is part
of defining one's requirements. For example, Kronos polyphony is a constraint for my originals. I know this up front - I cannot have 16 midi track originals, using large orchestra , mod7, Ep-1, CX-3, STR-1 sound engines all at once. Click click, pop pop, dropped notes, etc etc.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drama1 wrote:
Whoa. I REALLY hope Karma is included in any future Kronos. I use it strictly for changing and layering programs and combinations, all without cutoff of sound. My stubby fingers work waaaaay better using the Scene buttons than using the screen for program/combi changes.


Thats another solid point. Karma is integral in your performance controls.
You gotta have it.

No Karma on great new Korg keyboard ? You would have to re-invent your approach. Same here. That would suck.

Yes this is all ' what if '. But as a realist, I am unaware of any business arrangement for future Karma on a Kronos replacement.

Without a partner arrangement , there is no further Karma development on a future Korg keyboard. Dead in the water.

Nobody asked for my opinion. But I am offering it anyway Very Happy
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