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Can you imagine Kronos without Karma ? Or a future "Kro
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough one. First I'd have to imagine that Korg was going to create a new workstation. I can't say that I see any market forces compelling them to do that at the moment. They still sell (IMO) the finest keyboard workstation money can buy with very, very little to give it competition as of today. So I'm not so sure the successor is on the near horizon. I could also see a possibility that they'll do an update, similar to what they did with K2, in order to bring in some new customers, and maybe generate some revenue from existing ones, without all the risks of a new hardware platform. If they did I'd love to see the latest from Karma Labs be part of the update.

Of course I have no inside info, and I'm not a prophet, so who knows. Smile

As far as Karma itself, I find it impressive and fun when just noodling around. I did take advantage of the holiday sale on the Karma software (thanks Stephen!) so I did commit to learning a little more about it.

As far as actually using it in composition... I'm still not sure how it fits into my workflow yet. It seems like there's a lot of potential there. I think a big stumbling block for me at the moment is that in order to leverage Karma in an original composition, I have to first wade through lots of preset GEs to find one that is kind of close to what I want, and then tweak it into what I really want. Somewhere in that process, I kind of lose sight of the original inspiration.

It's probably a matter of understanding it better. I hope that having the software will help.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

Not familiar with your material. Your approach is more orchestral, movie sound track-ish ?


Classical, ambient, new-age, and experimental ( what experimental ? Think of Mike Olfield's Amarok but less "rock-ish" )


Last edited by Poseidon on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
laandodeman wrote:
I never use Karma. Think it is stupid you cannot program it unless you buy software.


I think Stephen did the best he could with native Karma on Kronos.

Keep in mind, he doesn't own Korg. He partnered with Korg, and likely had parameters and time constraints , typical of any business partner arrangement.

We all have our requirements- or at least thats the way I see it.


The standard KARMA editor should be preloaded on Kronos (and OASYS) SSD, and Pro (Desktop) version for sale as an alternative. This is my opinion. Hopefully Korg will NOT ship incomplete technologies in the future, Kronos and OASYS are top-tier workstations ! And they deserve a simple edittor at least.
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KK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supposing I would be interested in a Kronos successor (which I am not, since I still love the machine in almost every way), I would not mind if they would drop the Karma option.

Don't get me wrong, I think Stephen's creation is great and one of a kind. But I have always played everything myself, from classical piano to complex progressive/rock/new age/etc compositions, all done one instrument after the other and played without help from note sequencers/arpeggiators.

Of course, from time to time I enjoy playing around a short while with the Karma "accompaniments", since it's part of my purchase, but I would have bought my Kronos anyway without it, since I was mainly looking for the best digital combined piano/organ/synth/sampler machine available in terms of sounds and programmability.

So my use of Karma is strictly about control functions like its dynamic MIDI, RT params, etc.
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
I did take advantage of the holiday sale on the Karma software (thanks Stephen!) so I did commit to learning a little more about it.


Nice 👍
Feel free to write me if you have any questions, even simple ones.
I'm still making videos on the GE Editor but that won't be done for awhile.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesFerraro wrote:

Nice 👍
Feel free to write me if you have any questions, even simple ones.
I'm still making videos on the GE Editor but that won't be done for awhile.


Awesome, thank you Charles!
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
Supposing I would be interested in a Kronos successor (which I am not, since I still love the machine in almost every way), I would not mind if they would drop the Karma option.

Don't get me wrong, I think Stephen's creation is great and one of a kind. But I have always played everything myself, from classical piano to complex progressive/rock/new age/etc compositions, all done one instrument after the other and played without help from note sequencers/arpeggiators.

Of course, from time to time I enjoy playing around a short while with the Karma "accompaniments", since it's part of my purchase, but I would have bought my Kronos anyway without it, since I was mainly looking for the best digital combined piano/organ/synth/sampler machine available in terms of sounds and programmability.

So my use of Karma is strictly about control functions like its dynamic MIDI, RT params, etc.


So you would be impacted without Karma- as you use Karma for additional controls.

Of course, this topic is a 'what if'. And possibly proactive.

I don't expect a newly imagined Kronos this month, or in the next 9 months.

2020 seems a better guess. If so, Korg has the new board in a team, working out design, costs, assumptions, features, specs- imagine a complex project plan at a big co.

Since Korg is not actively soliticitng our feedback during the design phase I think we should voice our requirements now. While Korg is in the design phase of the project.

Once the new product team locks down the design and specs, its all over.
Kronos is a fair example. Its not modular. You cannot pop in a new processor.
Users cannot acquire new sound engines. We cannot systemically increase
polyphony. RAM is fixed. Kronos banks are limited. And it looks to be a huge hassle to add a 2nd SSD to a new Kronos.

I don't assume Korg engineers stare down every wish list post on this forum.
I know they and the sound developers are very talented. No doubt.

I think, as a community, a chorus of demand is needed on an important customer requirement.

Karma is an outlier. Its a 3rd party product. A compatible version would need to be inserted during the design/spec phase. Thus, money and rights have to be settled first. Things have changed over 7 years. A new agreement seems likely.
All that business stuff that most musicians don't want to be concerned about.

I appreciate everyone who is posting on the topic.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen should come out with the KARMA Processor (external, say 1UI/2U rack design). That way people like GregC will have a secure future, and the others won't have to pay for something they never use. I am actually puzzled why he didn't do it in the first place. A such product would be more appealing, and flexible.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Stephen should come out with the KARMA Processor (external, say 1UI/2U rack design). That way GregC will have a secure future, and the others won't have to pay for something they never use. I am actually puzzled why he didn't do it in the first place. A such product would be more appealing, and flexible.


Thats a solid idea.

My concern has been all about preserving the SNG format into the future. Its unique to Kronos due to the many powerful features plus Karma.

IOW, having a simple midi file falls way short. Same with converting all my midi tracks in a song to audio for backup purposes. I am not opposed to always having a Kronos for the next 20 years. In order to preserve my growing song portfolio.

Korg , for example, did not preserve the Triton file format for Kronos- I could be wrong but thats my recollection.

Since a Kronos replacement [ ?] could be in the next 12-14 months, preserving the SNG format is something I require for a Kronos successor.
That would be optimal for a loyal Korg customer like myself.

I don't believe any of this is a surprise to Korg or any keyboard co.

Gigging musicians do heavy programming with their Kronos and are in the same boat. In the event of a desirable new board that replaces Kronos.
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KK
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
So you would be impacted without Karma- as you use Karma for additional controls.

Not really, because I can use external software like MIDI-OX with a tiny labtop and achieve similar things and more. But after some months of owning my Kronos, in a search to try to avoid having to connect external stuff every time, I discovered how to do certain MIDI control things with Karma.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
... My concern has been all about preserving the SNG format into the future. Its unique to Kronos due to the many powerful features plus Karma.

IOW, having a simple midi file falls way short. Same with converting all my midi tracks in a song to audio for backup purposes. I am not opposed to always having a Kronos for the next 20 years. In order to preserve my growing song portfolio.

Korg , for example, did not preserve the Triton file format for Kronos- I could be wrong but thats my recollection.

...


I can understand your concerns, it can be especially devastating to people who perform live.

The only way to preserve SNG format is to use an external sequencer like Cubase, logic etc…
This is why I use Logic for composing music, and Kronos SEQ for sketches and ideas only.

If I may suggest, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider how you compose SNGs. You could always assemble some movements, passages etc in Kronos powerful features, but once they are done , dump them to ext. sequencer ( in many formats: SysEx, MIDI, processed audio)

I had 2 favourite songs composed on Roland XP-80 years years ago, and I have already converted to Kronos. it’s true, a drum mapping and SysEx got lost in process ( you can always recreate) but I have NOT lost the song.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
GregC wrote:
... My concern has been all about preserving the SNG format into the future. Its unique to Kronos due to the many powerful features plus Karma.

IOW, having a simple midi file falls way short. Same with converting all my midi tracks in a song to audio for backup purposes. I am not opposed to always having a Kronos for the next 20 years. In order to preserve my growing song portfolio.

Korg , for example, did not preserve the Triton file format for Kronos- I could be wrong but thats my recollection.

...


I can understand your concerns, it can be especially devastating to people who perform live.

The only way to preserve SNG format is to use an external sequencer like Cubase, logic etc…
This is why I use Logic for composing music, and Kronos SEQ for sketches and ideas only.

If I may suggest, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider how you compose SNGs. You could always assemble some movements, passages etc in Kronos powerful features, but once they are done , dump them to ext. sequencer ( in many formats: SysEx, MIDI, processed audio)

I had 2 favourite songs composed on Roland XP-80 years years ago, and I have already converted to Kronos. it’s true, a drum mapping and SysEx got lost in process ( you can always recreate) but I have NOT lost the song.


Very good hybrid and backup solution, thanks. I realize I am fighting the future with this Karma topic.

I have had Cubase and an Audio interface set up on my macbook for several months. I plan to set aside 1 month this year to get comfy with Cubase and song recording.

I am 1 of those old school song writers hooked on SEQ hardware work flow. My muse is always on and if you have a demanding Muse, the new music is like drug addiction. If the muse [ flowing creative song ideas] slows I will be ready to turn the page to another platform. Using a DAW will open up the palette 1000% so thats a huge plus.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

I am 1 of those old school song writers hooked on SEQ hardware work flow. My muse is always on and if you have a demanding Muse, the new music is like drug addiction. If the muse [ flowing creative song ideas] slows I will be ready to turn the page to another platform. Using a DAW will open up the palette 1000% so thats a huge plus.


As someone coming at from the other direction (I've used a DAW since around 1992, now starting to use the K for recording more) there are definitely some advantages to the hardware workflow, and there's definitely something non-musical about a mouse. I like them both.

I do agree with what you say about opening up the palette though. You can get Komplete, Omnisphere, etc. and it's a vast universe of sounds plus the synths to alter the presets and create new ones.

As I understand it, so long as you have your K connected to your computer, if you buy the Karma Kronos software, you can direct all of the Karma goodness at soft synths running inside your DAW. Haven't actually tried that yet, but potentially you have could best of both worlds today. Brand new Karmafied sounds.

Is anyone doing this?
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
As I understand it, so long as you have your K connected to your computer, if you buy the Karma Kronos software, you can direct all of the Karma goodness at soft synths running inside your DAW. Haven't actually tried that yet, but potentially you have could best of both worlds today. Brand new Karmafied sounds.

Is anyone doing this?


Yeah I do that. Even posted a video on how to set it up. But I've since refined my approach and it's more solid now. You need to use a virtual MIDI bus to transfer data between the DAW and KK (KARMA Kronos software).

An example of a problem: used to have Cubase control the KARMA software's tempo but it was extremely jittery beyond the point of being useable. Now I use KK as the master clock for the Kronos while Cubase is independent and am thinking about slaving KK to the Kronos which itself is slaved (via external usb) from Cubase. That way I could have Cubase still automate tempo but get around the jitter issue.

That might not make a whole lot of sense without a demonstration. The jitter issue and quite a few other things come into play when wiring data from KK to a DAW.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:

I am 1 of those old school song writers hooked on SEQ hardware work flow. My muse is always on and if you have a demanding Muse, the new music is like drug addiction. If the muse [ flowing creative song ideas] slows I will be ready to turn the page to another platform. Using a DAW will open up the palette 1000% so thats a huge plus.


As someone coming at from the other direction (I've used a DAW since around 1992, now starting to use the K for recording more) there are definitely some advantages to the hardware workflow, and there's definitely something non-musical about a mouse. I like them both.

I do agree with what you say about opening up the palette though. You can get Komplete, Omnisphere, etc. and it's a vast universe of sounds plus the synths to alter the presets and create new ones.

As I understand it, so long as you have your K connected to your computer, if you buy the Karma Kronos software, you can direct all of the Karma goodness at soft synths running inside your DAW. Haven't actually tried that yet, but potentially you have could best of both worlds today. Brand new Karmafied sounds.

Is anyone doing this?


It sounds ridiculous, I have Omnis and Keyscape and have done next to nothing with them.

I can easily send Karma note values[native to Kronos] over midi to my FA-07.
Its sounds fantastic.
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