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Effects CPU meter reading
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:02 am    Post subject: Effects CPU meter reading Reply with quote

I have just notice that Performance meter (Effects CPU ) displays 12-20% in idle state.
And when youíre switching from COMBI to PROG can even spike to 50%. I can understand that, but the first reading is simply screaming for OS optimisation. Will we ever get it ?
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Effects CPU meter reading Reply with quote

That would indicate that the effects are running, at least at some capacity, even when you're not playing. I believe the parameter guide even says as much. That some effects and engines consume some amount of fixed cpu.

For an effect like reverb, which is input dependent, you can implement it by having it always on or you can put in some logic to stop it as its input and output goes under a certain threshold dB. Doing the latter might involve a bit more overall work and given the assumption that the instrument is on to be played, not idling, having it always on was probably a conscious decision.

The spike is probably due to the sum of running both previous and current effects chains during the seamless transition. And possibly heavier effect chains in COMBIs of course..

Are you running out of effects cpu?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Effects CPU meter reading Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
I have just notice that Performance meter (Effects CPU ) displays 12-20% in idle state.
And when youíre switching from COMBI to PROG can even spike to 50%. I can understand that, but the first reading is simply screaming for OS optimisation. Will we ever get it ?


I always start my Kronos with a acoustic piano. Many programs have a touch of reverb. I also get that FX reading.

I suppose its use ful to have some guide where I am against polyphony - either too many voices + too many FX.

I am use to red lining every song . I don't say much attention to the meters.
Likely my K is mostly running hot due to usage . I don't gig.

If I gigged outside when it its 90 degrees I bet my K would have a heat shut down. Maybe viewing the meters would help provide a warning.

OS optimization ? Add it to the wish list.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: Effects CPU meter reading Reply with quote

Gunnar wrote:
Are you running out of effects cpu?


No. I am usually a very resourceful, and learnt quite a bit how to manage effects.
But when comes to Note Stealing meter I have a bad experience, and wagons of frustration. I always end up making compromises that in many cases destroy my creativity.
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm, note stealing can be an issue, and it is a bit frustrating when this happens, but effects use and notes should be isolated into separate cores on the onboard cpu, as I recall, so reducing effects usage wouldn't improve on note stealing..

The biggest improvements I've done to note stealing is to create a few dedicated HD-1 patches and to cut decays and release times. For strings for instance, I've created a single HD-1 PROG which is a lot cheaper than the built-in ones (by effect of only using one engine and a single multisample and rather use envelopes and velocity). And I Tone Adjust down release on things where only the attack is relevant to greatly cut down the time it is active. Not perfect, but it tends to get me by.. And very little use of unison, of course..
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Effects CPU meter reading Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
I have just notice that Performance meter (Effects CPU ) displays 12-20% in idle state.
And when youíre switching from COMBI to PROG can even spike to 50%. I can understand that, but the first reading is simply screaming for OS optimisation. Will we ever get it ?


What makes you think the first value is ďscreaming outĒ for OS optimisation?

The values in the Performance Meters tab are, as far as I know, based on total CPU usage for each core. Effects usage includes all audio routing and mixing between the six audio outputs, six inputs, four recording busses and two IFX busses, as well as EQ for up to 16 tracks and six inputs. That doesnít come for free in terms of CPU usage.

The doubling you see in usage when changing programs is likely due to Smooth Sound Transition doubling the number of effects and EQs temporarily.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunnar wrote:
Mmm, note stealing can be an issue, and it is a bit frustrating when this happens, ...


It is an issue, and Korg knew that very well.
I do not demand much, just 2 Karma modules and 4-5 instruments for classical Combis. I am giving up slowly 'cos it is waste of time.

Gunnar wrote:
The biggest improvements I've done to note stealing is to create a few dedicated HD-1 patches and to cut decays and release times. For strings for instance, I've created a single HD-1 PROG which is a lot cheaper than the built-in ones (by effect of only using one engine and a single multisample and rather use envelopes and velocity). And I Tone Adjust down release on things where only the attack is relevant to greatly cut down the time it is active. Not perfect, but it tends to get me by.. And very little use of unison, of course..


So you do compromises like me, however you choose more advance pathways, I simply change to crappy less demanding PROGs.

It is a pitty that a such wonderfull instrument like Korg Kronos is powered by CPU that should NOT be there.
It is my last workstation. From now on I be better off buying few synths, and upgrade my Mac Pro to 12-18 cores. Hopefully new Mac Pro will be released this year.


Last edited by Poseidon on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note stealing on the Kronos is generally very good, and isnít something you need to necessarily think a lot about unless itís very audible. Most of the time, itís not audible.

Many of the programs built into the Kronos are very processor intensive as they are designed to sound as good as possible when played solo. Sometimes, a bit of gentle tweaking is needed to get them to play nicely in a sequence or combo with high polyphony.

This is part of the overall design ethos of the Kronos. Itís possible to create a single Program that can consume the entirety of the Kronosí processing power with one or two notes. With this power, itís up to the user to manage polyphony more closely. The alternative would be to do what many other manufacturers do and make have a much more fixed structure for sounds, but guarantee polyphony.

Some simple ways programs can be incorporated into combos whilst maximising polyphony is to ensure they are running in mono, not stereo, and reduce cross fading between samples. Avoiding wave sequences where unnecessary, for round robin switching for example, can also help.

CAS Ron point: I created an acoustic guitar patch using my own samples and I created 3 different versions - one that struggles to have 16 note polyphony, and one that can reach up to 100 notes without issue. For solo parts, I use the former, and in an ensemble I use the latter.

Incidentally, the Kronos well out performs my i5 Mac in a number of areas, particularly audio and midi latency, precisely because it is so optimised.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note stealing on the Kronos is generally very good, and isnít something you need to necessarily think a lot about unless itís very audible. Most of the time, itís not audible.

Many of the programs built into the Kronos are very processor intensive as they are designed to sound as good as possible when played solo. Sometimes, a bit of gentle tweaking is needed to get them to play nicely in a sequence or combo with high polyphony.

This is part of the overall design ethos of the Kronos. Itís possible to create a single Program that can consume the entirety of the Kronosí processing power with one or two notes. With this power, itís up to the user to manage polyphony more closely. The alternative would be to do what many other manufacturers do and make have a much more fixed structure for sounds, but guarantee polyphony.

Some simple ways programs can be incorporated into combos whilst maximising polyphony is to ensure they are running in mono, not stereo, and reduce cross fading between samples. Avoiding wave sequences where unnecessary, for round robin switching for example, can also help.

CAS Ron point: I created an acoustic guitar patch using my own samples and I created 3 different versions - one that struggles to have 16 note polyphony, and one that can reach up to 100 notes without issue. For solo parts, I use the former, and in an ensemble I use the latter.

Incidentally, the Kronos well out performs my i5 Mac in a number of areas, particularly audio and midi latency, precisely because it is so optimised.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:

Incidentally, the Kronos well out performs my i5 Mac in a number of areas, particularly audio and midi latency, precisely because it is so optimised.


off course, what else would you expect from i5 Mac, these CPU are not suited for your tasks ( audio/media production) at all. i3 and i5 were design for general market. You need at least i7 or Xeon.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
This is part of the overall design ethos of the Kronos. ...


Is Sluggish scrolling of PROGs (Touch View Display) part of design too ?
To me It reflects underpowered CPU, or poorly optimised software.
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Gunnar
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
SeedyLee wrote:

Incidentally, the Kronos well out performs my i5 Mac in a number of areas, particularly audio and midi latency, precisely because it is so optimised.


off course, what else would you expect from i5 Mac, these CPU are not suited for your tasks ( audio/media production) at all. i3 and i5 were design for general market. You need at least i7 or Xeon.


It really depends on your workflow.

My i5 MacBook easily beats the top-notch machine I had 10 years ago, and even that old one was ok for what I was doing at the time. Nowadays I run Reaper and record primarily audio, and I only start adding effects when I get to mixing, and then I can up the buffersize, and I have no issues running this with projects with 60-120 tracks... The i5 is fine Smile

If I wanted to go all out on VST instruments, then yes. I'd definitely need a beefier computer.

Poseidon wrote:

Is Sluggish scrolling of PROGs (Touch View Display) part of design too ?
To me It reflects underpowered CPU, or poorly optimised software.


I think it came up in the forums here that the UI is driven by the separate onboard ARM core.. At any rate, what it shows is that even though the system is having a really hard time updating the UI, the audio doesn't glitch. That, to me, shows a well designed system that works in a predicable and reliable manner, despite its limitations. For comparison, when I scroll the view in Reaper on my MacBook, the audio will occasionally glitch.

While I wouldn't mind even more power in the Kronos, more polyphony, better engines and effects and all that, I am tremendously happy with how it actually does work in its current shape and form.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
Some simple ways programs can be incorporated into combos whilst maximising polyphony is to ensure they are running in mono, not stereo, and reduce cross fading between samples. Avoiding wave sequences where unnecessary, for round robin switching for example, can also help.

CAS Ron point: I created an acoustic guitar patch using my own samples and I created 3 different versions - one that struggles to have 16 note polyphony, and one that can reach up to 100 notes without issue. For solo parts, I use the former, and in an ensemble I use the latter.


For beginners or average users does not come easy to do that.
Anyway thanks for those tips, and to Korg I say give me CPU upgrade option.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
SeedyLee wrote:

Incidentally, the Kronos well out performs my i5 Mac in a number of areas, particularly audio and midi latency, precisely because it is so optimised.


off course, what else would you expect from i5 Mac, these CPU are not suited for your tasks ( audio/media production) at all. i3 and i5 were design for general market. You need at least i7 or Xeon.


No, you donít. With all due respect, you have no idea what youíre talking about.

If you want to have a discussion about the exact architectural issues you believe make the i3 and i5 processors broadly unsuitable for media work, Iím happy to have that discussion. Iíll do so with my official hard copy Intel instruction set/architecture reference handy.

Also, the ďsluggishnessĒ of the screen has nothing to do with the power of the main processor. Itís more to do with the fact the ARM frame buffer is communicating over USB. Just like people assume (incorrectly) that the slow boot times are due to inadequate components when in fact itís more to do with the cryptographic checks the Kronos performs on boot.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:

I think it came up in the forums here that the UI is driven by the separate onboard ARM core..


That's interesting. Kronos CPU have 400MHz build-in processor graphics. So it looks like it is not used.
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