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Advanced Wave Sequencing Comparison
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:19 am    Post subject: Advanced Wave Sequencing Comparison Reply with quote

Wave Sequencing? Granular? Wavetable? Who knows. Yet again HD-1 does a lot more than you would expect.

A moment to reflect... HD-1 can officially do:
-real PWM
-real osc sync
-real granular/wavetable synthesis
This is a sampler engine we're talking about doing way more than a sampler should!
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once more, very interesting, thank you Charles.
I'm not sure I've all understood yet.
I do not understand when you are using Halion or Kronos ? Is it possible to do all that with Kronos only ?
On the Kronos wavetable screen I don't see any sample but only "????? unknown". What sample are you using ?
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halion is only there for the sake of comparison. It can be difficult to tell which synth is playing since MIDI is always being sent to Halion. The trick is to notice which synth is unmuted at the time.

The ??? name appears bc the Kronos editor isnít actually receiving MIDI from the Kronos. Thatís a limitation of Windows not being able to split a MIDI driver between two programs. The editor canít load sample names since it canít get information from the Kronos. Iím using a custom sample chopped up into tiny bits.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great video, Charles! You motivated me to finally experiment a bit with this wave sequence as a wave table experiment.

It's not all that obvious in the experiment that you did, but what I'm finding is that if you modulate the wave sequence position with an AMS source, it doesn't seem to honor the time values you set up in the wave sequence, such as duration and, in particular, cross fade.

My experiment used single cycle wave forms. I extracted the first four wave forms out of the bank called MSK2 from the link below, created a multisample from each, looped them, stretched them across the keyboard.
https://waveeditonline.com/

Then I used each of these 4 multisamples as one step of a wave seqeuence.
Here are some quick audio grabs to demonstrate. I also grabbed some photos of the Kronos screen to illustrate what was different.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArVvnEREGK0vgvlK7mZOPWd_yAHmqQ (phpBB seems to be tripping on the ! so you'll have to copy/paste the whole link)

Sequenced.WAV is with the wave sequence in run mode (duraton/crossfade @ 500ms), and it is honoring the crossfade times.

Modulated.WAV is with run mode un-checked, and position set to AMS source of Filter EG with an amount of +4 steps.

Using single cycles like this, rather than chopped speech, you can hear it stepping really clearly - not doing the cross fades. So, do you think I'm missing something here, or are we just seeing the limit of turning the wave seqeuencer into something it isn't?
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesFerraro wrote:
Halion is only there for the sake of comparison. It can be difficult to tell which synth is playing since MIDI is always being sent to Halion. The trick is to notice which synth is unmuted at the time.

The ??? name appears bc the Kronos editor isnít actually receiving MIDI from the Kronos. Thatís a limitation of Windows not being able to split a MIDI driver between two programs. The editor canít load sample names since it canít get information from the Kronos. Iím using a custom sample chopped up into tiny bits.


Thank you Charles for answering.
For a better understanding purpose, would it be possible to have a picture of the Kronos Wavesequence screen ?
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
Great video, Charles! You motivated me to finally experiment a bit with this wave sequence as a wave table experiment.

It's not all that obvious in the experiment that you did, but what I'm finding is that if you modulate the wave sequence position with an AMS source, it doesn't seem to honor the time values you set up in the wave sequence, such as duration and, in particular, cross fade.

My experiment used single cycle wave forms. I extracted the first four wave forms out of the bank called MSK2 from the link below, created a multisample from each, looped them, stretched them across the keyboard.
https://waveeditonline.com/

Then I used each of these 4 multisamples as one step of a wave seqeuence.
Here are some quick audio grabs to demonstrate. I also grabbed some photos of the Kronos screen to illustrate what was different.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArVvnEREGK0vgvlK7mZOPWd_yAHmqQ (phpBB seems to be tripping on the ! so you'll have to copy/paste the whole link)

Sequenced.WAV is with the wave sequence in run mode (duraton/crossfade @ 500ms), and it is honoring the crossfade times.

Modulated.WAV is with run mode un-checked, and position set to AMS source of Filter EG with an amount of +4 steps.

Using single cycles like this, rather than chopped speech, you can hear it stepping really clearly - not doing the cross fades. So, do you think I'm missing something here, or are we just seeing the limit of turning the wave seqeuencer into something it isn't?


Ah yeah I was aware it won't honor crossfades when stepping through the sequence with an AMS but I didn't know about the lack of duration. Makes sense though. Thanks for doing that research and providing audio examples.

Liviou2004 wrote:
CharlesFerraro wrote:
Halion is only there for the sake of comparison. It can be difficult to tell which synth is playing since MIDI is always being sent to Halion. The trick is to notice which synth is unmuted at the time.

The ??? name appears bc the Kronos editor isnít actually receiving MIDI from the Kronos. Thatís a limitation of Windows not being able to split a MIDI driver between two programs. The editor canít load sample names since it canít get information from the Kronos. Iím using a custom sample chopped up into tiny bits.


Thank you Charles for answering.
For a better understanding purpose, would it be possible to have a picture of the Kronos Wavesequence screen ?

Yup

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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really appreciate the time you put into publishing your videos and insights, Charles. I think the Kronos/OASYS are much more advanced than people give them credit for, and your videos are doing a lot to bring these capabilities to light.

Personally, I'm a little tired of the constant discussions on here comparing the Kronos to softsynths, or complaining about the things it doesn't do or the fact it was released 7 years ago. Your videos are a breath of fresh air.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesFerraro wrote:

Ah yeah I was aware it won't honor crossfades when stepping through the sequence with an AMS but I didn't know about the lack of duration. Makes sense though. Thanks for doing that research and providing audio examples.


Ah, well, it wasn't really research so much as trying to recreate the experiment, and the source I chose revealing some additional info.

So it seems you can get HD-1 to mimic a wavetable synth sometimes, but not in every situation. It leaves me wondering what Korg had in mind when they made the Position parameter modulatable. It's not like every parameter in the Kronos is modulatable - they seemed to carefully choose only the ones they thought would be musically valuable as AMS/Dmod targets. Often there are examples in the factory patches but I'm not sure I've stumbled on one for this yet.

You could sequence it with the common step sequencer, but since the Wave sequencer already contains a sequencer... seems a bit redundant.

I suppose you could genenerate a random per note, switching the timbre with each note. That might be pretty interesting. Can we think of others?

SeedyLee wrote:

I really appreciate the time you put into publishing your videos and insights, Charles. I think the Kronos/OASYS are much more advanced than people give them credit for, and your videos are doing a lot to bring these capabilities to light.

Personally, I'm a little tired of the constant discussions on here comparing the Kronos to softsynths, or complaining about the things it doesn't do or the fact it was released 7 years ago. Your videos are a breath of fresh air.


+1! Charles' videos are very inspiring.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any chance you could talk us through your process for making the grain multisamples? I tried it on the Kronos and it was a bit of a slow process.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
I really appreciate the time you put into publishing your videos and insights, Charles. I think the Kronos/OASYS are much more advanced than people give them credit for, and your videos are doing a lot to bring these capabilities to light.

Personally, I'm a little tired of the constant discussions on here comparing the Kronos to softsynths, or complaining about the things it doesn't do or the fact it was released 7 years ago. Your videos are a breath of fresh air.


I absolutely agree with you.
Charles leads us deep inside the Kronos. His contribution is very important.
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timbukktwo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
I really appreciate the time you put into publishing your videos and insights, Charles. I think the Kronos/OASYS are much more advanced than people give them credit for, and your videos are doing a lot to bring these capabilities to light.

Personally, I'm a little tired of the constant discussions on here comparing the Kronos to softsynths, or complaining about the things it doesn't do or the fact it was released 7 years ago. Your videos are a breath of fresh air.


+1

Iím all for improvements, honest competition in the marketplace, and new products (the latest and greatest)- but, who in the **ll (lol) has mastered their Kronosí in the first place?? Exhausted *ALL* the possibilities?? What a **mn good board! What a tool! Which thread was it here on KF- Kronos section where someone somewhere really hit the nail on the head when it was said if there was anyone whom *REALLY* got into the *NITTY - GRITTY* expert of programming the potential out of the Kronos (my paraphrasing)? Deal with the limitations, and move on with what it is. Of course, Iím all for communicating with Korg for improvements/additions, whether they happen or not. However, I still love it ALREADY for what it is. I do applaud the efforts that those of us, though, whom plead to Korg for the kind of improvements to make the Kronos an even better board. Itís because of those people that potential improvements can (and have) happen/ed, but we canít expect to get everything we think the Kronos should have. It just wonít happen, unless we sign a massive petition to Korg- lol. I gottaí admit, thereís more that *could* be added to the Kronos as refinements to make it a bit better (like the distortions, etc., as has been said before).


Last edited by timbukktwo on Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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timbukktwo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hereís to Charles-

🥃🥃!
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leonh
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course they want new Kronos the current one need to be played to make music how backward Laughing
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you guys so much for the compliments. Getting nice replies is really motivating. I'm happy you guys get something out of the videos.

Lightbringer wrote:
leaves me wondering what Korg had in mind when they made the Position parameter modulatable. It's not like every parameter in the Kronos is modulatable - they seemed to carefully choose only the ones they thought would be musically valuable as AMS/Dmod targets. Often there are examples in the factory patches but I'm not sure I've stumbled on one for this yet.

You could sequence it with the common step sequencer, but since the Wave sequencer already contains a sequencer... seems a bit redundant.

I suppose you could genenerate a random per note, switching the timbre with each note. That might be pretty interesting. Can we think of others?


I think the manual maybe talks about velocity switching maybe. I'd need to check and see.

SeedyLee wrote:
Is there any chance you could talk us through your process for making the grain multisamples? I tried it on the Kronos and it was a bit of a slow process.


I just created a 640ms recording and chopped it up into sixty-four 10ms segments. Actually made sure each .wav I exported was exactly 480 samples long (480 samples is 10ms when running at a 48kHz sample rate). Created multisamples out of the .wavs by uploading via USB and put those into the Wave Sequencer. There might be a faster way to do it either by using the file transfer protocol (FTP) or having the Kronos automatically chop up a sample into even segments. Francis Capistrano linked me to a vid by Rich Formidoni that might go over how to do the auto-chop technique but I haven't reviewed it yet. I don't have the urge do that kind of sound design again at the moment. There are definitely a few more things to check with that technique so I'll make a 'part 2' if I go back to explore.
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mikeyd
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:


Personally, I'm a little tired of the constant discussions on here comparing the Kronos to softsynths, or complaining about the things it doesn't do or the fact it was released 7 years ago. Your videos are a breath of fresh air.


Me too! What is great about Charles publishing these tutorials is it shows how deep the KRONOS is, how much of a learning curve is involved, and how the KRONOS is still going strong. And lack of updates is really not true. Weíve had plenty.
So Thank you for your post, and Thank you Charles!
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