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ITguy54 Full Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2015 Posts: 248
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:21 am Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: |
My own take is that focusing on 64-bit, expanded RAM and all the rest misses, by a wide mile, what the Kronos was, is and what any "replacement" might be.
Busch. |
How does focusing on these things miss what the Kronos was? How does it miss what it could be? Do you think the point of the Kronos was NOT to be a technological marvel with forward thinking features? |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:50 am Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: | Might be wrong but I doubt anyone is going to receive a meaningful response. Problem is if Korg says something in an email/letter, it's suddenly official. They might as well issue a press release. With the Internet and communication as it is today, confidentiality is no longer possible. I suppose one might receive a form letter type response, thanking the sender but offering nothing.
My own take is that focusing on 64-bit, expanded RAM and all the rest misses, by a wide mile, what the Kronos was, is and what any "replacement" might be.
Busch. |
I am not asking Korg about future new products. I would not discuss any Kronos replacement. My interest is todays Kronos- answers to my questions will have no impact on sales.
My letter will invite suggest a phone call. No need for a written reply.
No one here is going to bend my ear if I have a discussion with Korg.
There has been 2 years of silence about Kronos. I think this is worth resolving. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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burningbusch Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1203 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:26 am Post subject: |
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ITguy54 wrote: |
How does focusing on these things miss what the Kronos was? How does it miss what it could be? Do you think the point of the Kronos was NOT to be a technological marvel with forward thinking features? |
Because it is a musical instrument, not some combobulation of high-tech parts. If I were to recommend to Korg ONE thing to do with the Kronos it would be to re-do their main sample library. Many of the sounds in the instrument go back to the OASYS and further. They are compromised because they were designed to fit into a small amount of ROM. The Kronos, with SSD streaming, doesn't have that restriction. No other hardware keyboard supports and it's Korg's trump card. They should exploit it. I'm talking about one quality stereo nylon guitar, one quality stereo steel string guitar, uncompromised woodwinds, brass and strings. I'm not talking about hundreds of instruments, but a carefully constructed library of the main acoustic instruments. Quality on the level of what you find in software. There is no reason this couldn't be done with the current Kronos hardware. The other manufacturers couldn't compete.
This has nothing to do with 64-bit or 8+GB of RAM, etc. What's really gained from all that if in the end, the sounds are the same? If you want to talk about adding Vox/Farfisa to CX3 or the King Korg filters at AL-1, I'm all ears.
Busch. _________________ Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com
Last edited by burningbusch on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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burningbusch Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1203 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:39 am Post subject: |
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GregC wrote: |
I am not asking Korg about future new products. I would not discuss any Kronos replacement. My interest is todays Kronos- answers to my questions will have no impact on sales.
My letter will invite suggest a phone call. No need for a written reply.
No one here is going to bend my ear if I have a discussion with Korg.
There has been 2 years of silence about Kronos. I think this is worth resolving. |
The 'silence' IS the answer. If the silence is broken, then that's a different answer. NDAs don't simply cover future products, they cover any/all non-public information.
Busch. _________________ Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:59 am Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: | GregC wrote: |
I am not asking Korg about future new products. I would not discuss any Kronos replacement. My interest is todays Kronos- answers to my questions will have no impact on sales.
My letter will invite suggest a phone call. No need for a written reply.
No one here is going to bend my ear if I have a discussion with Korg.
There has been 2 years of silence about Kronos. I think this is worth resolving. |
The 'silence' IS the answer. If the silence is broken, then that's a different answer. NDAs don't simply cover future products, they cover any/all non-public information.
Busch. |
I have an opinion how customers should be treated.
I think companies should be more transparent.
NDA's can apply to internal employees. They do not apply to customers.
I am a customer. I am free to ask a few questions. If met by silence, thats the way the cookie crumbles. I will plan accordingly. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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kronoSphere Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2012 Posts: 698
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: |
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it is the internet era of communication that all people was dreaming of. And we cannot reach directly anyone just by phone anymore. : Welcome to none ! _________________ trees are going fast.
https://www.lairdeparis.fr
Current Gear : Kronos 88 / Seaboard Rise / Triton Extreme / Sequoia / Motif Rack XS / TC Helicon voicelive rack /Awave 11 / Audio & VSTi plug-ins connected /wide touchscreen / iPad Pro 512. |
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jimknopf Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think better technical specs (64bit, faster processor etc.) would be more or less irrelevant. In fact I think they would be quite relevant, to solve problems with multitimbral voice stealing, providing a better amount of sample RAM (and yes, I mean amount of sample RAM for headers of big streaming libraries!), quality of many demanding effects like overdrive, reverb etc., not speaking of actual forms of audio manipulation.
That's A LOT of useful stuff just purerely based on technical improvement. It could make quite a big difference as basic requirement for any Kronos successor or up do date Kronos variation (in sharp contrast to really hilarious paint jobs).
But of course a reworked sample library is just as much overdue. The incredible amount of 80s and 90s sound standard material from Oasys times and before has already years ago caused me to kick the whole standard factory content in favor of my perosnal choices, just because I didn't want to deal any longer with all these masses of rarely useful low quality former times sample material.
As I said in other threads, I am also no longer satisfied with the quality of the EP engine and it's Rhodes and Wurly sample base: I definitely still like the high dynamical range of this engine (which is one of it's main benefits), but would like to see it based on MUCH better actual sample material, coupled with MUCH better amp modelling and overdrive. It just frustrates me to go on using this engine staying 1:1 in 2011 status, while software has risen to the levels of Scarbee, Keyscape, Canterbury Rhodes etc. etc., and their (Korg's EP engine) Wurly has always been a very dark and muddy version making it hard to tune it for actual use. The only reason I have no D6 problem is the fantastic Busch D6 sample library.
While I like the Polysix and MS20 VAs in the Kronos a lot, I never liked the basic sound character of the AL-1 (though there are lots of really useable patches available), and would exchange it against a Mono-Poly version in no time, or would like to see the AL-1 functionelity within a better surface with much smoother and more variable sound character (filters etc.). And for actual Pop and Hiphop genres, adding something like the Gadget synth modules (if they run on an iPad, why not on a Kronos???) would offer a lot of perspective as well.
Add the lousy status of the editor/VSTi functionality, which was never resolved in any convincing way, and the Korg Kronos homework book is full of not too big tasks and missed chances, since significantly more than two years (when only minor things were updated). We rather talk of something like four lost years of Kronos stagnation from my view. Of course I would be ready to pay significantly for seeing these tasks done! But leaving everything just as it is, means my money goes elsewhere and will no more be invested into Korg products, where flagships (Kronos and Prologue) are no longer treated like flagships (and appropriate successors), and the present Korg team is deeply in love with one-day-fly Bonsai synth culture instead.
Apart from all that, which is still placed within the Oasys/Kronos basic eco system, creative crews like the original Oasys teams could go far beyond all of this with lots of new ideas, which can hardly be discussed here.
Even if that would be a longterm perspective, the way the present Korg management deals with the Kronos reminds me of the unworthy Yamaha tratment of their own Motif heritage - and I can't regard the Montage as a remotley worthy successor of that great heritage.
So while I don't expect Korg to reveal future plans, I think they could have done a MUCH better job
a) updating a few things without too big time and money investments into the actual platform
b) communicating with their customer base in a way which keeps them updated about basic things, without having to give away any secrets. The present crew shows extremely immature communicative skills so far IMHO, and that's a complete no go within creative communities like musicians from my point of view. _________________ Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
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PCFREE Platinum Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2012 Posts: 523 Location: Just passing through...
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: | ITguy54 wrote: |
How does focusing on these things miss what the Kronos was? How does it miss what it could be? Do you think the point of the Kronos was NOT to be a technological marvel with forward thinking features? |
Because it is a musical instrument, not some combobulation of high-tech parts. If I were to recommend to Korg ONE thing to do with the Kronos it would be to re-do their main sample library. Many of the sounds in the instrument go back to the OASYS and further. They are compromised because they were designed to fit into a small amount of ROM. The Kronos, with SSD streaming, doesn't have that restriction. No other hardware keyboard supports and it's Korg's trump card. They should exploit it. I'm talking about one quality stereo nylon guitar, one quality stereo steel string guitar, uncompromised woodwinds, brass and strings. I'm not talking about hundreds of instruments, but a carefully constructed library of the main acoustic instruments. Quality on the level of what you find in software. There is no reason this couldn't be done with the current Kronos hardware. The other manufacturers couldn't compete.
This has nothing to do with 64-bit or 8+GB of RAM, etc. What's really gained from all that if in the end, the sounds are the same? If you want to talk about adding Vox/Farfisa to CX3 or the King Korg filters at AL-1, I'm all ears.
Busch. |
Absolutely! Then owners wouldn’t worry about buying large expensive sound libraries that take up a lot of space (prompting requests for hardware upgrades) For now, I haven’t bought any extra libraries. At present, I’m doing my best to make the most of what is there, with some editing _________________ Kurzweil K2700, Korg Nautilus 61, Yamaha MODX6
....as we forgive those who synthesize against us!! |
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danmusician Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009 Posts: 875 Location: Southern PA
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:08 am Post subject: |
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jimknopf wrote: | The Korg Kronos SE edition is nothing but a bad joke to me. |
I highly doubt that the SE was released to appeal to existing users. It was merely a way of adding value to an existing product to entice new users.
A company like Apple or Samsung can afford to retool their production lines to draw existing users to upgrade because the number of users is in the millions. A product like the Kronos is only in the tens of thousands. It's an entirely different marketing approach.
I've shared this before, but back in the day I had the opportunity to tour the Ensoniq facility in Valley Forge, PA. They did everything under one roof - design, manufacturing, etc. We saw the studio where they created samples and the Steinway grand they used for sampling. We had a question and answer session that was very enlightening. Lots of questions like:
Why doesn't the sequencer do this or that?
Why isn't this feature included?
Even: Why don't you include a music rack?
The answer was simple. "We identify the price point at which the product will sell the most units and then we fit in as much as can." At that time, most keyboards were selling in the neighborhood of $2k. One important point that was brought out is that every feature adds to the price exponentially. This is because each middle man gets his cut along the way.
We were told that there were lots of features they would like to include, but doing so would increase the price beyond what the market would bear. They also told us that they had all of the competitors keyboards in their lab that were dissected and analyzed for ideas.
It's unlikely that any of us are going call up Korg or write a letter and give them an idea that they haven't already considered. Decisions are made in the development process and the program moves forward. Going back and undoing those to add new features is unlikely. There was a reason for the decision in the first place.
Korg is not sitting on its hands with the Kronos thinking, "We know they'd like this or that killer feature. But we aren't going to add it because it's so much fun to frustrate our user base!"
My fear is that the Kronos may well be the last Workstation keyboard produced. As has been stated here many, many times, laptops can provide the same experience with much more flexibility. (I even did the keyboard/laptop road rig for a while. But I prefer the simplicity of the workstation approach on the road.) _________________ Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:34 am Post subject: |
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danmusician wrote: | jimknopf wrote: | The Korg Kronos SE edition is nothing but a bad joke to me. |
1]I highly doubt that the SE was released to appeal to existing users. It was merely a way of adding value to an existing product to entice new users.
2]My fear is that the Kronos may well be the last Workstation keyboard produced. As has been stated here many, many times, laptops can provide the same experience with much more flexibility. (I even did the keyboard/laptop road rig for a while. But I prefer the simplicity of the workstation approach on the road.) |
we have another speculation thread.
I am also an owner who utilizes and appreciates the ' all in one ' work station.
I might rely on it for another 5 years. Trying to plan ahead with my music production plans.
2) I have voiced this quietly, too. What we have is as good as it gets for a Kronos owner. Its possible there is no tomorrow for Kronos enhanced.
That said, the SE could have value as a 2nd Kronos. Looking ahead. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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tdwctdwc Full Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2012 Posts: 217
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:54 am Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: |
Because it is a musical instrument, not some combobulation of high-tech parts. If I were to recommend to Korg ONE thing to do with the Kronos it would be to re-do their main sample library. Many of the sounds in the instrument go back to the OASYS and further. They are compromised because they were designed to fit into a small amount of ROM. The Kronos, with SSD streaming, doesn't have that restriction. No other hardware keyboard supports and it's Korg's trump card. They should exploit it. I'm talking about one quality stereo nylon guitar, one quality stereo steel string guitar, uncompromised woodwinds, brass and strings. I'm not talking about hundreds of instruments, but a carefully constructed library of the main acoustic instruments. Quality on the level of what you find in software. There is no reason this couldn't be done with the current Kronos hardware. The other manufacturers couldn't compete.
This has nothing to do with 64-bit or 8+GB of RAM, etc. What's really gained from all that if in the end, the sounds are the same? If you want to talk about adding Vox/Farfisa to CX3 or the King Korg filters at AL-1, I'm all ears.
Busch. |
+100000000. I totally agree. _________________ A preview of my upcoming solo piano album: https://youtu.be/Cj9a_xATx-g |
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mikelees Junior Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 94 Location: Chelmsford, UK
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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burningbusch wrote: |
Because it is a musical instrument, not some combobulation of high-tech parts. If I were to recommend to Korg ONE thing to do with the Kronos it would be to re-do their main sample library. Many of the sounds in the instrument go back to the OASYS and further. They are compromised because they were designed to fit into a small amount of ROM. The Kronos, with SSD streaming, doesn't have that restriction. No other hardware keyboard supports and it's Korg's trump card. They should exploit it. I'm talking about one quality stereo nylon guitar, one quality stereo steel string guitar, uncompromised woodwinds, brass and strings. I'm not talking about hundreds of instruments, but a carefully constructed library of the main acoustic instruments. Quality on the level of what you find in software. There is no reason this couldn't be done with the current Kronos hardware. The other manufacturers couldn't compete.
This has nothing to do with 64-bit or 8+GB of RAM, etc. What's really gained from all that if in the end, the sounds are the same? If you want to talk about adding Vox/Farfisa to CX3 or the King Korg filters at AL-1, I'm all ears.
Busch. |
I also completely agree. Many of the samples are showing their age - the looping is painfully obvious on some of the samples - but maybe that's part of the character.
If there was ONE other thing I would want in Kronos, it would be to massively simplify the sharing of sounds (samples, programs, combis etc.). I was talking with our guitarist last night about how the strength of the online support and patch sharing community is a big factor in choosing and using any instrument - applies just as much to guitar FX as to keyboards. IMHO the ease of sharing patches and samples is one of the main reasons for the popularity of Nord Stage / Yamaha Montage/MODX, and sharing of PCGs and particularly samples is very difficult on Kronos in comparison. I think it would be quite straightforward for Korg to create an overall file format that was a wrapper for a PCG and UserBank.KSC so that (say) a Program, Combi or Setlist entry could be saved together with any custom samples to a single file (with appropriate protections for purchased samples!). This file could then be transferred to and loaded on another Kronos with the UserBank.KSC being automatically installed on the auto-load list, and Programs / Combis / Drumkits / User Patterns / Wavesequences etc. being automatically installed to empty slots and mapped correctly. Would simplify patch sharing massively - and I think would create a much stronger Kronos user community. _________________ Free worship sounds for Kronos: https://korgkronosworshipsounds.blogspot.com |
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Astrotaz
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 2
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I highly doubt that the SE was released to appeal to existing users. It was merely a way of adding value to an existing product to entice new users.
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As a non Korg user considering purchasing a Kronos for the first time, this thread concerns me.
I would hate to splash out the $ on an SE only to find Korg refreshes with a new machine in a year. Given the age of the Kronos new buyers who are considering a purchase may consider waiting it out.
Thoughts? Worth jumping in now -- or waiting? |
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benny ray Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2014 Posts: 628
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Astrotaz wrote: | Quote: |
I highly doubt that the SE was released to appeal to existing users. It was merely a way of adding value to an existing product to entice new users.
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As a non Korg user considering purchasing a Kronos for the first time, this thread concerns me.
I would hate to splash out the $ on an SE only to find Korg refreshes with a new machine in a year. Given the age of the Kronos new buyers who are considering a purchase may consider waiting it out.
Thoughts? Worth jumping in now -- or waiting? |
The Kronos is still in demand and I don't any changes anytime soon JMO. Kronos is still one of the most versatile keyboards on the market. Not much competition for the Kronos. _________________ K2 Kronos 88, Mojo 61, Korg CX3, Roland FANTOM 7 |
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Liviou2004 Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2017 Posts: 1150 Location: France
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Astrotaz wrote: | Quote: |
I highly doubt that the SE was released to appeal to existing users. It was merely a way of adding value to an existing product to entice new users.
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As a non Korg user considering purchasing a Kronos for the first time, this thread concerns me.
I would hate to splash out the $ on an SE only to find Korg refreshes with a new machine in a year. Given the age of the Kronos new buyers who are considering a purchase may consider waiting it out.
Thoughts? Worth jumping in now -- or waiting? |
You will never be sure, when buying a synth, that it won't be out of sale just one year after its release. Be Kronos or whatever.
Some synths have been a full commecial failure.
On another hand, no one here will be able to predict the Kronos future.
The only thing we can assure : the Kronos is a very powerful synth. To that extent, you won't be disappointed.
So, it's up to you : either you wait for a new Kronos (and you could wait for a long long time !) or you run the risk to buy one and see a new big workstation appears next ! |
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