Korg Forums

[LZ]

What I'd like to do is what, in the old days, they used to call "MIDI Echo" where incoming data is merged with what you do locally and sent to the output. It would be the same as running the "Out" and "Thru" ports into a MIDI merge box. Although my need is a bit simpler because only 1 MIDI channel needs to be passed through.

The application is that I want the Kronos to send patch changes to subsequent devices, but also want to use an external controller to control parts in the Kronos combi as well as devices further down the chain.

Seems to me like Karma should be able to achieve this but I haven't used it much and want to both verify that it will do what I want and maybe get a suggestion on where to start (which GE, basic settings).

Let's assume my Gch is 1. ,my external controller is Ch 14 and currently in a combi, would control any part assigned to ch 14.

My thought is I could set up a Karma Module for MIDI input channel 14, MIDI output channel to match whatever device I want to control, then in the Kronos Combi make sure the part for that channel is set to Ext so the Kronos doesn't sound, but sends program change to the device in that channel when the combi is selected.

Furthermore, it would seem I could control that device from the Kronos by setting input channel to Gch and output channel to match the device.

Am I on the right track here?
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[psionic311]

See this recent thread. It's not a 100% solution:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=117595

FWIW, I ended up getting an iConnectivity Mio4 for $150. After connecting it via USB to my computer to route and remap MIDI as I needed, it now lives under my Kronos and is powered via Kronos USB. It merges MIDI from several devices in my chain and allows the Kronos to be the master to send Program Changes to all devices.

[psionic311]

You may be able to do what you want another way.

MIDI controller USB OUT => Kronos USB in

MIDI controller MIDI OUT => Kronos DIN MIDI IN

Kronos DIN MIDI THRU => downstream device DIN MIDI IN


That arrangement lets your MIDI controller play the Kronos combi, while at the same time passing MIDI thru to the next device so you can play that and send it patch changes from your MIDI controller.

EDIT: this arrangement does not allow the Kronos to control downstream devices unless you use Kronos MIDI Out for a second MIDI chain

[LZ]

Thanks for the replies. Looking at that other thread seems like maybe I just need to get the right GE but certainly don't want any latency or other weirdness. I while back I used Karma with help from this forum to use my Kronos local control surface and pedals to control a guitar processor on another channel, but that was just stuff like using the pedal and switches with MIDI CC's, not actually playing notes.

My controller does not have USB. In fact, one of the controllers I'm using has 2 MIDI in's and 4 MIDI out's and I figured out how to do all of the routing I need in that if needed, but it involved something like 6-7 MIDI cables. I don't want to do that live. If I can make this work, that would be 1 wireless MIDI interface, and 3 MIDI cables.

A little more detailed info on my rig:
Before this conundrum, it was pretty simple....Roland AX70 lower tier, Kronos 61 top. All sound from the Kronos, play some sounds in combi mode from A70. Not even using functionality of A70, it just transmits on Ch14 so anything I want for lower tier I assign that channel.

(why 14? just my standard from long ago when 15 and 16 were effects program changes and I wanted the lowest contiguous channels for sequences, 1 being what I played, so my lower tier happened to land on 14 and it stuck).

Fast Forward.... I just added to that same rig an MFB Dominion 1 analog Synth, and (for now anyway) a Line6 Pod (subject to change), as well as a Roland AX-7 with CME wireless MIDI interface. Everything is DIN MIDI.

Keeping in mind my original rig, my INITIAL thought was to run the Dominion 1 as a lead synth through a dedicated guitar amp (this is a progressive metal band...think Dream Theater, Sons of Apollo, etc). Before buying an amp I started messing with the Pod I already had from way back. Started thinking with my Kronos, lots of audio routing options and patch control of the Dom1 and Pod.

Next, started trying this audio routing: Dominion 1 out to Kronos Input 1. Kronos Aux 1 to Line6 Pod, Line6 Pod to Kronos 1nput 2. In this way, any part in the Kronos and/or Dominion 1 can be routed through the Pod (or not) as well as involve any IFX in the chain as well as MFX and all be mixed internally. The Audio routing and IFX routing in a combi can set it up however I want.

So then I'm thinking I should be able to send program changes to the Dom1 and Pod, no problem. But the Dominion 1 is only 37 key so my first thought was that it would sometimes be nice to control from the Kronos except that Gch1 on the Kronos - if I set the Dom1 to ch1 then I'm always triggering. That was just the beginning. I had considered triggering sound in the Kronos from my AX-7 (keytar) but it came to a head with a song we're writing now where I'll be trading solos with the guitar player front and center and want to use the AX7 triggering the Dom1.

Another complication is my POD and the DOM1 only both have In/Out and no Thru for MIDI. However, the POD is long in the tooth and I'm looking at the HX Stomp which can configure the MIDI out exactly like I'm wanting to do with the Kronos.

Assuming I got that, MIDI would look like this:
AX7 > A70 In2 (wireless)
A70 Out1 > Kronos In
Kronos Out > Line6 Out/Thru > Dominion 1

It would be ideal if I could have the AX7 and A70 on different channels, and have the Kronos decide to play an internal sound for each or both or route it to the Dominion 1. That's the ideal world for me right now.
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[LZ]

FWIW, this is my first attempt running the audio as stated - Dom1 into Kronos, Kronos to Line6, back into Kronos, mixed in IFX chain and all out L/R.

No MIDI connected other than the lower tier (in this case a Triton, but acting just as my A70 would - transmitting on Ch14).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcADj3ZPBsk
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[psionic311]

If you set your Dom to ch2 but leave your Kronos on Gch1, you can still play the Dom from your Kronos. Just set a timbre to channel 2, and make sure that timbre's keyboard zone doesn't overlap with other timbres on different MIDI channels.

Using keyboard zone ranges on your Kronos, you can further tailor how you want your various keyboards to interact. By setting up timbres to only play in certain keyboard ranges, on certain MIDI channels, you can control any downstream device from the Kronos as you see fit, as long as there is an intial connection in the first place.

[psionic311]

Wow, I just looked up the specs and manual for the Roland A70.... that's an impressive controller. Seems to me your solution lies there.

I'm sure you're already aware that with multiple INs and OUTs and a THRU, you can basically create a MIDI merge situation with the A70 and whatever is connected to it.

Honestly, trying to hack a MIDI Merge solution with the Kronos and KARMA is an uphill battle which I've fought and given up on. I opted for a 3rd tier "pedalboard " solution with a merge box and color coded and labeled MIDI cables.

Using 7 MIDI cables is a whole lot easier than separate boxes with their associated power supplies and space requirements.

Good luck and rock that Kronos proudly on stage! Keyboards in hard rock and metal bands are a niche breed.

[psionic311]

Another thing, you mention on the Keyboard corner post that you want to be able to send patch changes to your Dom and Pod from the Kronos.

That is definitely possible on the Kronos. Dedicate a timbre each to the Dom and Pod, and put those timbres on their respective MIDI channels to match the Dom and Pod. Then choose EXT (instead of the default INT) for those timbres. Now choose your program number for that timbre that corresponds to the patch number you want on the downstream device. Save.

[LZ]

Yes I figured out how I can do everything I need in the A70, but in order to use setlist mode in the Kronos to set everything, at the end of the day it was turning into something like 6-7 MIDI cables to hook up every time. So while that is a possible solution, If I can do what I want in the Kronos, I'm down to 3 MIDI cables. Plus right now I like the fact that I don't have to rely on a complex setup in the A70 to just hook up and play. In fact, at home, I keep my old Triton on a stand, I keep one A70 on a stand at practice, and have a 2nd A70 and another stand I gig with. That way I'm just taking the Kronos 61 back and forth between home and practice, and have a stand and A70 I can take on gigs without tearing down what's at home or practice. But again, if that's what I end up having to do, I can do it. But I'd like to achieve it with the Kronos.
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[LZ]

Not having a whole lot of luck.

The solution in the linked thread was in the ballpark, but with the weirdness going on, basically made it unplayable.

There needs to be a GE called "don't do a damn thing, just output exactly what I play", and then the input ch/output ch thing would do the trick.
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[LZ]

OK, so if I end up having to do all of this in my A-70, then I guess I'm down to this....

A-70 OUT 1 to Kronos IN
Kronos OUT to A70 IN 1
AX-7 to A70 IN 2
A70 OUT 2 to POD THRU to Dom 1

Dedicate one MIDI channel to the A70 for the Kronos to select a configuration in the A70

Configurations would include:
1) As it is now, local keyboard controls ch 14 in Kronos
2) Kronos (A70 IN 2) routed to OUT 2 so that program changes make it to Dom 1 and Pod, AX7 routed to OUT 2 to control Dom 1
3) AX7 routed to OUT 1 to trigger parts in Kronos

Technically the Pod doesn't have a Thru, so I could include routing to OUT 3 on the A70, but I plan on replacing the POD with an HX Stomp, whose out port can be configured for Thru.

So 5 MIDI cables, 3 A70 performances, and A70 would be required to use the rig, no more generic lower tier controller.

Or I could buy a MIDI solutions merger and merge the Kronos Out and Thru with 2 extremely short midi cables. That would be a hell of a lot less work.
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[psionic311]

[LZ]

Yes that should have been Kronos to A70 IN 1

The A70 In 1 automatically assigns anything coming in to whatever channel the A70 is on - basically acts like an extension of the keyboard, like for instance using organ pedals to extend the keyboard. The Kronos going into the A70 would only be for performance changes to the A70 so that channel doesn't matter (assuming I can get it to work that way - haven't tried it).

AX-7 would go into IN 2 so that it can transmit on a different channel than the A70 so they can control different parts if needed.
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[LZ]

Actually, as I'm thinking about this, just caving slightly on my flexibility can simplify things.

If need be, I can already use EXT2 in combi to control the Dom1 from the Kronos. Just plugging the AX7 into A70 IN 2 I can have the A70 always set to send what's coming from the AX70 to the Kronos along with it's own data.

The AX7 has upper/lower buttons that I can keep as my default setup to transmit on different MIDI channels as well as split or layer.

So to maintain backward compatibility with all of my previous setups in various bands I play with, A70 will still control parts on Ch 14. I'll set AX7 to transmit on 15 and/or 16; and Don 1 to receive on 16.

Still will need the MIDI solutions Merge box, but AX7 could toggle between playing parts in the Kronos, the Dom 1, or both, and Kronos could control Dom 1. Only thing I couldn't do is control Don 1 from A70, but that's not important.

So wireless MIDI from AX7 to A70, short MiDi cable A70 to Kronos, 2 short MIDI cables from Kronos Out/Thru to merge box, Merge to Guitar processor, Thru to Dom 1. Technically stil 6 MIDI cables (7 if you count the one on the AX7 to the wireless transmitter on the strap), but mostly short and simple.

I plan to get the Line6 HX Stomp - maybe I'll incorporate that with my sustain pedals and swell pedal to include the murre box, DI, MIDI wireless receiver and make a fan-out snake with ends labeled to make setup quick and easy. Especially since I have all the audio routings going on as well. After all, Kronos connections alone will be (4) Audio, (3) MIDI, (2) Pedal. A70 will be (2) MIDI, (1) pedal.
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[mikelees]